Margaret Mitchell fired from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#341

Post by choppaface » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

2-tpg wrote: post #225

choppaface wrote: post #164

Dr. Gebru was fired for having consulted a lawyer. (Jeff Dean and others were aware that Dr. Gebru was consulting a lawyer long before her termination). Employers can do stupid things, but not illegal things, and it's beyond stupid to fire somebody for talking to an attorney. Google felt threatened and so they acted, fair and simple. While it's OK to feel threatened, it's not OK to retaliate, which is what Google, le…

Gebru was fired for unprofessional conduct and disturbing the work place. She tried to sneak a Google authored paper through internal peer review, by submitting it on the day of the deadline, and having the paper approved without incorporating any feedback of the internal review. Then she wrote an angry unhinged email to her colleagues and subordinates, where she said that Google was marginalizing Black women for spe…

She didn’t sneak the paper, and the committee was trying to block it for BS reasons like the committee member wanted his work cited.

Jeff Dean is a billion-dollar employee who has evidently extremely weak people skills. He was in way over his head in this one and he made the exceptionally bad choice of continuing the argument. Moreover he knew Gebru was consulting a lawyer, so his actions are de facto retaliation for that.

If you can’t muster skepticism for Google’s astroturf here, you’re falling straight into the issues of bias and prejudice that we do dearly need to expunge from the workplace.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#342

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #314

jeffbee wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore posted his stupid screed all over the place for months. He posted it to mailing lists, he printed it out and waved it around at conferences.

Maybe you are right, I was working in Switzerland, not in US. What I remember clearly though is that Google's training contained material about how I am allowed to socialize with coworkers outside work, which may be allowed in the US, but it was clearly against the Swiss constitution (my job security was more important to me than speaking up about this though)

What exactly did this training say? I'm just a little suspicious that Google was saying you couldn't socialize with friends outside the office, since that's unenforceable, not in their interests, and also deeply stupid.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#343

Post by cauthon » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #325

dragonwriter wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if she thought that she was untouchable, She was complaining about her peer and co-lead being fired by top management, going around their shared immediate management, dishonestly and in retaliation for internally highlighting problems. I think the one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that she didn't see herself as invulnerable. > so easily getting caught red-handed “so easily caught red-handed”? It took 5…

> she didn't see herself as invulnerable Yet: Dr. Gebru and I had just been promoted to “Staff” Research Scientist, which is meaningful in the world of STEM, with the sort of honor associated with becoming tenured. We had thought it meant a certain amount of job security.

I’m assuming the parent comment means she didn’t see herself as invulnerable after Dr. Gebru’s firing. The quote describes their mindset before the firing in order to highlight why she found it unexpected.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#344

Post by gammarator » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:35 AM UTC

anon_tor_12345 wrote: post #219

izacus wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a university, aside from well-defined ethics guidelines for conducting research (e.g., involving animal or human subjects), staff are generally free to publish the findings of their research at any venue they see fit. I'm not sure what university were you at where that was true - academia is horribly political (in many ways more than corporations in some ways less) and until you get tenure your job is to put up…

>Your career is dependant on good recommendation letters and goodwill of quality advisors life pro tip: for any paper with more than 2 authors, the last author is the most senior and did the least amount of work (if any). i leave it to you to conjecture about quid pro quo.

The last author convention is not used in all fields.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#345

Post by flippinburgers » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:36 AM UTC

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #140

duckfang wrote: post #99

At the same time, Google unveiled a "Black owned businesses near me" on Google Maps. How has that been received? We need look no further than Twitter: (the Tl;Dr. racists are using this to lower all ratings of these Black owned businesses) https://twitter.com/dmetaxak/status/1362856231212212224 Google recently added a feature allowing users to search for "Black-owned businesses near you". They're advertising it all o…

In what will be an entirely self-serving, "everything is evidence for my existing worldview" claim... ...I would promote race-blindness as the solution to this. The more we talk about and focus on race, especially in a zero-sum context like "buy black-owned", the worse the racial tensions and competition will become. People confuse cultural power with economic power...just because many powerful people/businesses supp…

The rather old viewpoint of content of character over skin color is the only good way forward in my opinion. I find it to be a real tragedy that skin color has come under hyper focus in the last decade.

I think it stems from a tragic mixture of deep desire to make things better (a good thing) and youthful impatience. Combined with the accelerated ability to disseminate ideas via the internet ... we are in an ongoing flame war that I never would have imagined. It makes me feel sick, sad, and frustrated.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#346

Post by throwaway3699 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:37 AM UTC

nodesocket wrote: post #241

strangeloops85 wrote: post #139

Somehow Microsoft Research manages to be a much more open place than Google and has researchers publish critical pieces all the time. It's ultimately a bit sad that Google, the company started by two PhD students, is incapable of creating a similar culture to MSR.

This behavior starts all the way at the top with Sergey. See Google's leaked internal all-hands[1] after Trump won basically calling for the end of the world without any regard to employees who may be fiscally conservative or Trump supporters. Google is by far the worse of the big bay area tech companies in terms of stifling speech, equality of outcome policies, and being an echo chamber. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/201…

Ironically I've found YouTube's policies to be far more liberal & open than Twitter or Facebook's. I think Sergey was wrong to kick off about Trump so publicly, but he is also the guy that pulled Google out of China on principle alone. A mixed bag, for sure.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#347

Post by jamesmishra » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:39 AM UTC

throwaway3699 wrote: post #334

Cacti wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole piece of so amazingly self-entitled. > Dr. Gebru refused to subjugate herself to a system Like working at a gigantic publicly traded US corporation? > belittle her integrity as a researcher and degrade herself below her fellow researchers Funny way of phrasing "paper wasn't good enough yet to pass peer review." > let those of us in positions of privilege and power come to terms with the discomfort of being…

> News flash: if even Jeff Dean thinks you're an unbearable asshole, you got some issues. Wait, does Jeff have a reputation for being an "asshole" or something?

No, the opposite. Jeff Dean is known for exceptional kindness and humility. He is the kind of person that wouldn't have a problem with a researcher standing up for ethics.

Therefore, the implication is that anybody Jeff Dean cannot bear is an unbearable asshole.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#348

Post by trhway » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:40 AM UTC

aerosmile wrote: post #261

You will learn a lot about Margaret Mitchell's firing by simply reading this piece she shared publicly on Twitter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ERi2crDToYhYjEjxRoOzO-uO... A few punchlines: "Every moment where Jeff Dean and Megan Kacholia do not take responsibility for their actions is another moment where the company as a whole stands by silently as if to intentionally send the horrifying message that Dr. Geb…

>The firing of Dr. Timnit Gebru is not okay, and the way it was done is not okay.

if i remember correctly she made an ultimatum and threatened to resign, and her resignation was accepted. That doesn't look like firing until we call "firing" any resignation when one disagrees with the employer.

To me that intentionally looking sleight of hands with firing/resignation in the Mitchell's doc already undermines trust to whatever point she is making there.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#349

Post by Cacti » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:41 AM UTC

throwaway3699 wrote: post #334

Cacti wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole piece of so amazingly self-entitled. > Dr. Gebru refused to subjugate herself to a system Like working at a gigantic publicly traded US corporation? > belittle her integrity as a researcher and degrade herself below her fellow researchers Funny way of phrasing "paper wasn't good enough yet to pass peer review." > let those of us in positions of privilege and power come to terms with the discomfort of being…

> News flash: if even Jeff Dean thinks you're an unbearable asshole, you got some issues. Wait, does Jeff have a reputation for being an "asshole" or something?

No, quite the opposite.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#350

Post by xiphias2 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 1:41 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #342

xiphias2 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you are right, I was working in Switzerland, not in US. What I remember clearly though is that Google's training contained material about how I am allowed to socialize with coworkers outside work, which may be allowed in the US, but it was clearly against the Swiss constitution (my job security was more important to me than speaking up about this though)

What exactly did this training say? I'm just a little suspicious that Google was saying you couldn't socialize with friends outside the office, since that's unenforceable, not in their interests, and also deeply stupid.

I didn't write that that we couldn't, it was about how we could.

For example we shouldn't tell a coworker that he/she's pretty, shouldn't get drunk together, and a lot of behaviour that is considered flirting and getting to know eachother in Switzerland.

In US behaviour outside Google is handled by the company as well, but in Switzerland there are very strict privacy laws and culture that forbid companies to control any part of the life of people outside work. The right to privacy is part of the Swiss constitution, and it's taken there very seriously (to the point where generally the tax authorities don't have the right to look at your bank accounts, unlike in US for example).

Edit: I can't reply, so I extend this comment

,,shouldn't'' is not banning.

And also what you write that Google may have a problem if harassment happens is true, but I still think you think in US law terms: privacy in Switzerland is like voting right in US: it's like telling that ,,you are not advised to vote for Trump as a president''. Or telling you that ,,you are hired, but you should probably go back to Mexico''.

warkdarrior: Again, yes, in US that training is legal and socially acceptable. But the training was in violation of the Swiss constitution...I'm not sure why people in US don't understand that the laws are different in different countries (people from other countries understand it generally). Harassment is a trendy topic right now, but it doesn't trump privacy and the right for not controlling any part of a person's life outside work, even if that's with coworkers, and even if it may lead to a legal problem for Google. In Switzerland people are grownups, they don't need babysitting.

I have to add one more thing: Andy Ruby belongs to prison, everybody knows it, and giving us more trainings won't help the main issue, that the top management was/is raping women or coercing them to have sex to keep their jobs.