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Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

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Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#231

Post by joshuamorton »

kristianc wrote: post #51
freeone3000 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring an ethics in AI research team presupposes you want to have ethics in your AI. It's disappointing, but not surprising, to find they want a bunch of syncopants. Perhaps they shouldn't have bothered creating the department if they didn't want people working there to speak out.

You’d have to think there was some middle ground between investigating and adding ethical accountability to AI programs and exfiltrating thousands of sensitive files.

In this context, it's very likely that you can translate "exfiltrating thousands of sensitive files" to "downloaded some of her emails", perhaps related to fear of retaliation

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#232

Post by bpodgursky »

ineedasername wrote: post #135
ashtonkem wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like there is no possible situation where searching (dredged is a weirdly loaded word) through ones own email is a fire able offense. In fact, the idea that one can be fired for reading ones own work email strikes me as kind of absurd and unworkable. Perhaps there are things one can do with the emails you found that are fireable, that’s beyond my (lack of) legal expertise, but searching? That doesn’t s…

It seems like she was passing stuff on outside of Google, but then we don't really know the details of those activities to know if it was an inappropriate action.

Passing documents outside of Google is going to get you fired. There are no exceptions, unless you are talking to federal investigators or regulators.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#233

Post by tyingq »

cornel_io wrote: post #173
duckfang wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She moved files when she wasn't supposed to. According to Google. Remember, an entity that has a reason and a justification to do what it wants will manufacture whatever evidence it needs to do that. And, it's not a court of law. At best, it's "allegedly moved files when they weren't supposed to".

If she didn't do it and they don't have good reason to believe she did, then she could and should easily win a large lawsuit against them, since they have publicly accused her of illegal activity. That is a hugely more risky move than just saying that someone underperformed or was let go for other reasons, and knowing how heavily pre-lawyered everything that Google does is, I highly doubt they would publicize somethi…

"Maybe I'm wrong, but afaik she has yet to deny doing exactly what they've claimed."

That seems like the natural thing to do if you feel like you may already be in the process of being fired. I assume a lawyer would advise you to be quiet about it, right?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#234

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

pvorb wrote: post #226
zhengyi13 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking up internally is pretty clearly ineffective, and has been since at least the days of the Real Names debacle.

You can either accept that your words are not heard, or quit.

Or speak out publicly. Always an option.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#235

Post by pseudalopex »

cornel_io wrote: post #173
duckfang wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She moved files when she wasn't supposed to. According to Google. Remember, an entity that has a reason and a justification to do what it wants will manufacture whatever evidence it needs to do that. And, it's not a court of law. At best, it's "allegedly moved files when they weren't supposed to".

If she didn't do it and they don't have good reason to believe she did, then she could and should easily win a large lawsuit against them, since they have publicly accused her of illegal activity. That is a hugely more risky move than just saying that someone underperformed or was let go for other reasons, and knowing how heavily pre-lawyered everything that Google does is, I highly doubt they would publicize somethi…

Any lawyer would tell her not to say anything about Google's allegations. Especially before she was fired.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#236

Post by ineedasername »

throwawayhaxx99 wrote: post #174
thewarrior wrote: post #62

I’ve been wondering how sincere the Silicon Valley corporate mantra of Be yourself, Be authentic, be open to management really was. There was so much idealism even on Hacker news. Nowadays I witness the strange contradiction of people bashing giant tech companies while mostly discussing how to found the next giant tech company. A lot of us did genuinely believe it. However as the companies grew and became mega corps…

Nobody intelligent ever thought it was sincere

I'm probably not intelligent then. In the early 00's, I did think Google mostly believed in its mission to organize and act as a gateway for the world's information.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#237

Post by MattGaiser »

throwawayhaxx99 wrote: post #185
buildbot wrote: post #131

It’s a really common refrain here that if you are employee critical of your employer you should expect to get fired… Well perhaps, but you’d think that specifically someone in AI ethics needs to be empowered to speak up against both internal external issues. Or did google just want an research ethics hit team against other companies technologies? Makes me wonder if project zero is really trying as hard as possible wi…

It seems like Google really likes firing people instead of free speech. Sure they can do that because of at will employment but at some point it has to start leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths especially when these firings get publicized. At some point CS grads will start taking this into consideration when it comes to working at places and having their own political views. Who wants to work at a place where th…

> It seems like Google really likes firing people instead of free speech.

Because it has consequences in the outside world that need to be smoothed over. Some people think that Google should just let people do whatever and allow themselves to be the whipping boy for what their employees have said.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#238

Post by disposekinetics »

chronic3802 wrote: post #126

- 135,000 Google employees - 2,000 signed a petition to support Timnit [1] - 2 employees resigned to support Timnit [2] When it comes to voting with your feet, no one actually gives a shit. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/thousands-petition-google-fo... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/04/tech/google-employees-quit/in...

Or the vast majority supported Google's actions but the social climate is such they worried about the mob coming after them.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#239

Post by ineedasername »

benlumen wrote: post #74
brailsafe wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Above a certain amount, unless you're a sociopath, selling your soul just makes you depressed.

I mean, I assume that most people doing these high-end jobs actually want to be doing them. If they've sold their souls, that's a seperate issue.

Lot's of people just chase the next incremental step up, compensation increase, etc. Their not even sociopaths, they just don't know how to find meaning in their lives in other ways.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#240

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

tyingq wrote: post #233
cornel_io wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she didn't do it and they don't have good reason to believe she did, then she could and should easily win a large lawsuit against them, since they have publicly accused her of illegal activity. That is a hugely more risky move than just saying that someone underperformed or was let go for other reasons, and knowing how heavily pre-lawyered everything that Google does is, I highly doubt they would publicize somethi…

"Maybe I'm wrong, but afaik she has yet to deny doing exactly what they've claimed." That seems like the natural thing to do if you feel like you may already be in the process of being fired. I assume a lawyer would advise you to be quiet about it, right?

Probably, but she has been pretty far from quiet on the topic.
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