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Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

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Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#191

Post by jimbokun »

ggm wrote: post #26
underseacables wrote: post #18

She was fired for violating company confidentiality, anything she says otherwise about her gender, race, culture, etc is just a deflection, but it’s probably coming.

Do you think society at large really benefits from employers doing things this way? If you were in the ethics department of a company, unpacked deep seated entrenched breach of social norms and were blocked from talking about it but still believed in ethics, what would you do? I am unsure I would be prepared to do what she and Timbru did but that's a long way from the implied cynicism and also frankly abject legalist…

"unpacked deep seated entrenched breach of social norms"

What does this mean in English?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#192

Post by ahepp »

ineedasername wrote: post #119

So they fired an ethics leader because she thought something unethical might be going on and was taking steps to investigate it by automating a review of her email, or something like that. It seems she may have been passing on some of that information to persons outside of Google, which isn't great, but I also don't see much in the way of details on what that actually entailed, so it's hard to judge how inappropriate…

What kind of internal documents could she have sent to external parties that wouldn't fully justify her firing?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#193

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

throwawayhaxx99 wrote: post #185
buildbot wrote: post #131

It’s a really common refrain here that if you are employee critical of your employer you should expect to get fired… Well perhaps, but you’d think that specifically someone in AI ethics needs to be empowered to speak up against both internal external issues. Or did google just want an research ethics hit team against other companies technologies? Makes me wonder if project zero is really trying as hard as possible wi…

It seems like Google really likes firing people instead of free speech. Sure they can do that because of at will employment but at some point it has to start leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths especially when these firings get publicized. At some point CS grads will start taking this into consideration when it comes to working at places and having their own political views. Who wants to work at a place where th…

> It seems like Google really likes firing people instead of free speech.

What were your thoughts when Google fired James Damore?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#194

Post by ttt0 »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #140
duckfang wrote: post #99

At the same time, Google unveiled a "Black owned businesses near me" on Google Maps. How has that been received? We need look no further than Twitter: (the Tl;Dr. racists are using this to lower all ratings of these Black owned businesses) https://twitter.com/dmetaxak/status/1362856231212212224 Google recently added a feature allowing users to search for "Black-owned businesses near you". They're advertising it all o…

In what will be an entirely self-serving, "everything is evidence for my existing worldview" claim... ...I would promote race-blindness as the solution to this. The more we talk about and focus on race, especially in a zero-sum context like "buy black-owned", the worse the racial tensions and competition will become. People confuse cultural power with economic power...just because many powerful people/businesses supp…

> ...I would promote race-blindness as the solution to this.

Don't you know that colorblindness is white supremacy? So good luck with arguing that.

https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/1267529522041282563

For those who don't know, this is the author of Code of Conduct and Hippocratic License.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#195

Post by mc32 »

thundergolfer wrote: post #162
bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“My employer is doing something wrong” is not a political belief

Can you elaborate?

Not the OP but I’d say reporting a company for breaking the law isn’t political even though laws stem from the political process.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#196

Post by zhengyi13 »

MattGaiser wrote: post #180
buildbot wrote: post #131

It’s a really common refrain here that if you are employee critical of your employer you should expect to get fired… Well perhaps, but you’d think that specifically someone in AI ethics needs to be empowered to speak up against both internal external issues. Or did google just want an research ethics hit team against other companies technologies? Makes me wonder if project zero is really trying as hard as possible wi…

Speak up internally, sure. Externally?

Speaking up internally is pretty clearly ineffective, and has been since at least the days of the Real Names debacle.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#197

Post by ineedasername »

leetcrew wrote: post #161
duckfang wrote: post #99

At the same time, Google unveiled a "Black owned businesses near me" on Google Maps. How has that been received? We need look no further than Twitter: (the Tl;Dr. racists are using this to lower all ratings of these Black owned businesses) https://twitter.com/dmetaxak/status/1362856231212212224 Google recently added a feature allowing users to search for "Black-owned businesses near you". They're advertising it all o…

is "black-owned business" not an opt-in flag?

And if it is opt-in, and happened to boost business instead of attracting racist reviews, I would fully expect non-black owned businesses to capitalize on that and opt-in as well.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#198

Post by throwawayhaxx99 »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #193
throwawayhaxx99 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like Google really likes firing people instead of free speech. Sure they can do that because of at will employment but at some point it has to start leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouths especially when these firings get publicized. At some point CS grads will start taking this into consideration when it comes to working at places and having their own political views. Who wants to work at a place where th…

> It seems like Google really likes firing people instead of free speech. What were your thoughts when Google fired James Damore?

I am not a hypocrite. Writing that memo didn't have anything to do with how he did his job

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#199

Post by GavinMcG »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #140
duckfang wrote: post #99

At the same time, Google unveiled a "Black owned businesses near me" on Google Maps. How has that been received? We need look no further than Twitter: (the Tl;Dr. racists are using this to lower all ratings of these Black owned businesses) https://twitter.com/dmetaxak/status/1362856231212212224 Google recently added a feature allowing users to search for "Black-owned businesses near you". They're advertising it all o…

In what will be an entirely self-serving, "everything is evidence for my existing worldview" claim... ...I would promote race-blindness as the solution to this. The more we talk about and focus on race, especially in a zero-sum context like "buy black-owned", the worse the racial tensions and competition will become. People confuse cultural power with economic power...just because many powerful people/businesses supp…

Yes, antiracism must be measured by its effects. Google's campaign had antiracist intentions, and racist effects.

That doesn't mean we should all give up on effective antiracism, though. This tactic/campaign/etc. was not antiracist. Others can be. It's not clear at all why this should be taken to mean that "the more we talk about race...the worse the racial tensions and competition will become." The conversation around race in the US has been ongoing for decades, and there are many objective metrics whereby things have not become worse.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#200

Post by MattGaiser »

Booktrope wrote: post #181
leetcrew wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would a company pay someone to publicly criticize them? in the case of google, there's already plenty of people willing to do that for free.

Yeah, why wouldn't a company want a workforce full of yes-men and engineers who care about nothing but making shareholders money and making executives look good?

The key word is "publicly." You can oppose without doing it by proxy on Twitter.
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