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I built ByteDance's censorship machine

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Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#31
post #6

While most of the post is what I would expect, the minority language censorship was unexpected. It’s another sign of China’s ethnocentrism/Han Supremacist culture play out. It’s a real shame to see this sort of enforced death of linguistic diversity.

We do the same thing in the west. Look at the people you see in ads and on TV, it's always an idealized look at what the people in power WANT society to look like. My company recently moved away from animated characters back to using humans in their ads. Most of the people in our ads are mixed race, you can't really tell if they're asian, white, arab, or "tanned". So it's the same promotion of a genetic look, just wi…

I think it's strange that you equate "using racially ambiguous people" to promotion of said group. The fictional marketing company and the CCP have very different goals and I think you are projecting your own personal biases onto modern television marketing.

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#32
post #28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have similar situations elsewhere. Folks rage about 'the media' (a term now so amorphous I can't tell what it means anymore, or if the person even reads / watches what they think of as the media), so we get lots of self research / internet sleuth type discovery on platforms like reddit. We had one on HN recently too https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26186645 . I applaud the person for putting in the effort, but…

> but I'm highly skeptical of internet sleuths and their ability to string a few searches and documents together into an accurate narrative / provide context to complex systems Me too, but i'm just as sceptical when it comes to "real" journalists. Journalists aren't domain experts in everything. Read some random news about tech stuff, it's often times filled with clear indications of them not really understanding the…

Follow journalists who have domain expertise in technology?

You can use a shitty news article about a particular relevant topic that contains some questionable issues, and then search around for people that actually know what they are talking about.

Exert some of your own effort to find good sources. Don't trust the first thing you read. This is ultimately the problem imo.

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#33
post #20

> As a young unicorn, ByteDance does not have strong government relationships like other tech giants do, so it's walking a tightrope every second. For those in free countries: when you build moderation tools and use them to silence political dissent "because you have to / to play the game" the game plays you. There is no one "too big" to be crushed by those with the material source of political power [1] and everyone…

If the ruling government controls all elements of public discourse, how exactly do you “widely publicize and discuss censorship in real time”?

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#34
Anonymous source? Check.

Unverifiable anecdotal evidence? Check.

Somehow I’m not surprised that HN users don’t express the faintest bit of skepticism on topics that confirm their pre-existing biases.

“Alarmingly, only 14 percent of American students were able to reliably distinguish fact from opinion in reading tests.” [0]

[0] https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/pisa-test-chin...

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#35
post #20

> As a young unicorn, ByteDance does not have strong government relationships like other tech giants do, so it's walking a tightrope every second. For those in free countries: when you build moderation tools and use them to silence political dissent "because you have to / to play the game" the game plays you. There is no one "too big" to be crushed by those with the material source of political power [1] and everyone…

Having been raised in a democracy and raising my kids in a dictatorship, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding from both side. People in democracies cannot comprehend how anyone in a dictatorship could live anything else than miserable, and people in dictatorship mostly see people in democracies as hypocrite imperialists who lie to themselves about who truly rules.

The funny thing is that, well, it mostly all depend on how much you care and how corrupt the people in charge are, totally independent of the system. A dictatorship in Singapore works better than a democracy in Mexico for most metrics except anything that will make the power feel it's not in perfect control. The only difference in a dictatorship is the complete insecurity of the leaders who can't fathom that... we'd frigging vote for them would they ask nicely :D And you can completely ignore the party(ies), and live an entirely fulfilling and useful life, in both systems. I wouldn't argue for doing this but I see it all the time from both side and I envy it sometimes.

So this whole debate about censorship, it's really just a debate about insecurity. They don't censor the truth here, they don't censor debate or discussion, they only censor what nobody cares about: critics of the party. So it's a lot less "terrible" or "inhuman" than I thought it would be coming from a democracy. And I think the way to make it change isn't to whine and yell at it as much as you can, but to embrace the competent leaders when they come and give confidence to them we'll give them 10x more power by voting directly for them. And lay the final trap. At least my origin democracy became a democracy when it started doing just that after 2 centuries of massacres and revolts followed by authoritarian counter reactions in a seemingly endless cycle of aggressive "activism". It simply ended when we went to war in mass without being forced and convinced the rulers we'd vote for them anyway as a result, sheeples we are, which we did the first election. Trapped.

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I'm highly skeptical of internet sleuths and their ability to string a few searches and documents together into an accurate narrative / provide context to complex systems Me too, but i'm just as sceptical when it comes to "real" journalists. Journalists aren't domain experts in everything. Read some random news about tech stuff, it's often times filled with clear indications of them not really understanding the…

Follow journalists who have domain expertise in technology? You can use a shitty news article about a particular relevant topic that contains some questionable issues, and then search around for people that actually know what they are talking about. Exert some of your own effort to find good sources. Don't trust the first thing you read. This is ultimately the problem imo.

[deleted]

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#37
post #20

> As a young unicorn, ByteDance does not have strong government relationships like other tech giants do, so it's walking a tightrope every second. For those in free countries: when you build moderation tools and use them to silence political dissent "because you have to / to play the game" the game plays you. There is no one "too big" to be crushed by those with the material source of political power [1] and everyone…

You don't have to contribute, but if you don't, they'll find someone who will. We like to put the moral responsibility of such things on people who were trying to make a living. I think the power of the powerful is more relevant.

To be honest, I think focusing away from that is an ideological operation. It sounds very inspiring: "you don't have to do this!" Yeah, well, tell that to the people requiring the censorship.

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I'm highly skeptical of internet sleuths and their ability to string a few searches and documents together into an accurate narrative / provide context to complex systems Me too, but i'm just as sceptical when it comes to "real" journalists. Journalists aren't domain experts in everything. Read some random news about tech stuff, it's often times filled with clear indications of them not really understanding the…

Follow journalists who have domain expertise in technology? You can use a shitty news article about a particular relevant topic that contains some questionable issues, and then search around for people that actually know what they are talking about. Exert some of your own effort to find good sources. Don't trust the first thing you read. This is ultimately the problem imo.

Yep, thats one solution. But then do you really need journalists? Ultimately this ends in you having a some people you trust in certain areas. Quite how it works in real life. E.g. real life friends asked me what i think of covid tracking apps because they trust me on topics like this.

It's also not without failure modes. Lets say you just follow certain journalists/sleuths on certain topics that's basically filter bubbling by design.

Doing your own research to finding sources is imo the best thing, but it just doesn't scale. If i personally checked every single thing i've read today, that would be a full time job (aaand we've just invented journalists again to solve THAT problem)

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#39

Anonymous source? Check. Unverifiable anecdotal evidence? Check. Somehow I’m not surprised that HN users don’t express the faintest bit of skepticism on topics that confirm their pre-existing biases. “Alarmingly, only 14 percent of American students were able to reliably distinguish fact from opinion in reading tests.” [0] [0] https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/pisa-test-chin...

Uh huh... don’t kid yourself that this is exclusively a problem with Americans. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-post-trut...

Re: I built ByteDance's censorship machine

#40
The more that I read about what the social media giants are doing everywhere, including the recent drama around wsb discord ban and the Facebook-Australia thing, I feel that what's happening in China is chillingly close to happening to the rest of the world. Or maybe it is already happening slowly and we don't realise it yet.
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