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Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

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301–310 of 387 posts

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did (and do) not argue it’s inevitable , but it is quite common in my experience. My solution to their failure is to go pick it up myself, including purchasing some of those red insulated delivery boxes for our family use. It makes takeout much more enjoyable when the timing is predictable and the food almost as high-quality as if served on-site. As a customer, my concern is with a goods and services I’m buying. Th…

> is their concern, not mine. Well. This is self-centered to me. I don't want to buy anything from anyone who doesn't treat people with dignity.

It’s inarguably self-centered but entirely practical. I can’t review the employee handbook, employee promoter score, supply chain sustainability reports, and corporate social responsibility policies of everyone I order so much as an $8 pizza from.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#302
post #40
post #10

Really interested to see what this does to Deliveroo. I live in central London on a pretty busy street and it's really wild how many Deliveroo drivers there are. In front of most of the popular takeaway restaurants there are 3-5 drivers waiting at any given time. The increase in delivery and decrease in normal foot traffic during the pandemic has made this really stick out. Deliveroo already totally robs these restau…

I feel really bad for small restaurant owners. These large delivery companies totally take over their internet marketing too, registering a domain like ' - .com' and when you go to that website, you really have to pay attention to see that this is not the 'official' restaurant website and if you order through there, it's costing the restaurant a lot of money that they wouldn't miss out on if you'd order through their…

Perhaps more screenplay than solution for this particular problem, but this illuminates a reason organized crime has existed for many years. You have an underserved, unprotected group being abused by a more powerful group with huge financial backing that can twist existing laws to further the abuse. Organized crime groups step into the vacuum and build a powerful backing, including support of non-criminals in the abused group.

Personally I'm surprised you don't hear of hacker groups that protect websites and social media properties of the downtrodden. GoodFellas meets Social Network.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This question has been bothering me for a very long time now, does a food delivery platform really require the 20-30% fee to operate? If so, what justifies it? Or is it because of the spike in demand due to the pandemic so they can get away with it?

Food delivery is labor intensive. 20-30% is probably unreasonably high for a big order, but if you're only ordering a couple of dishes that percentage probably makes sense.

Food delivery seems like the sort of thing that should be a set/tiered price. When I last used grocery delivery years ago that's how it worked.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Deliveroo is helping these restaurants survive the pandemic is your main argument? Or that they’d do just fine if no one had a website offering their food, but the Deliveroo website is an arms-race bleed-them-dry move?

Sometimes middlemen serve a useful purpose. For example, I like grocery stores because they deal with farmers and food distribution and save me from driving out to source my own produce from growers. Sometimes they... might not. It's all relative the cut they demand. So here, are food delivery companies worth ~30% of cost? Yes, all sort of anecdotes are possible to drum up in this situation. Long term, across the ent…

> Somebody is paying that [30%], you or the restaurant

The customer is. They are the only one bringing money into the system over the long-run. The customer is paying for the ingredients, the property tax, the delivery, the lights, everything. The restaurant just handles the money.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#305
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replying to sister comment. In Germany, if you can't afford a lawyer you are entitled to the government paying legal aid in civil cases [1]. As you are - I just realize - in many countries. Problem is, that a restaurant owner isn't entitled to that so that even if you are a small company (self employed restaurant owner) you are toast. You could hope to have a legal insurance covering stuff like that, but not sure, if…

The Wikipedia article doesn't tell this (which is okay, it's not the main topic), but you have to be really poor to get legal aid in Germany. When I needed this years ago I wasn't eligible because my parents had paid into a pension insurance for me and it was worth more than 5k. This is a common problem with these schemes here in Germany. If you are really rich you have no problems, if you are really poor there exist…

If it’s limited to the poor, then the US has that through nonprofits like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legal_Aid_Society . There’s no standard, or for that matter, no single organization to look for, so it’s hard to say who exactly qualifies in any particular city.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#306
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Chinese restaurant in Lambeth tried disabling uber eats a few years back and running their own delivery service. Our food arrived TWO HOURS after ordering and cold. I'd really rather NOT go back to the old way.

I think it’s just too hard to organize drivers and delivery. I’ve never experienced a restaurant where their own delivery drivers are as fast, efficient, smart as Uber/etc. I’d rather just go pick it up myself than use restaurant delivery. I’m sure there may be exceptions somewhere, but even in Manhattan the deliveries that work for the restaurant sucked. I think it’s that there’s no simple feedback loop. An example…

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Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make actions illegal, and you can make not taking an action illegal, but you can't make not having enough money illegal, because "having money" is not an action that you can mandate people take. > "They needed to sue, but couldn't get a lawyer" is absolutely a circumstance we could make illegal. I mean -- I guess, technically you can, but it's one of the most insulting things I have ever heard. What are you g…

You seem to be interpreting it the opposite of how I interpreted it. You wouldn't take action against the person without money. You'd do something to fix the situation, like provide them with a lawyer for free. Note I don't necessarily think that's a good idea (really haven't thought it through), but that's how I interpreted th comment.

Right, I agree that's probably how it's meant, but that's not accurately described by the phrase "making it illegal".

If I make houses without a sewer line illegal, that doesn't mean the state has to lay a sewer line, it means you the owner have to take care that you get a sewer line or you open yourself up to liability.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'd hate to live in a world where you can drag anyone you want before a judge because you don't like what they're doing. I don't like the colour of your shirt, so I'm going to say it's objectionable. It doesn't break any laws or infringe any regulations, but I want a judge's opinion on it anyway. See?

Why would you hate that? The judge's opinion would be "the shirt is not unlawful" and "you're wasting court time, have a fine". How would that harm you? In the case of passing off a service you offer as begin the service of another company, there is a clear legal case to answer. And as I recall this is settled caselaw in the UK and the people pretending to be other companies are in the wrong.

> The judge's opinion would be "the shirt is not unlawful" and "you're wasting court time, have a fine". How would that harm you?

It wastes the time of the defendant and the legal service, which harms society.

It imagine it's also super stressful and expensive for the defendant to go through, even when it's thrown out.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is their concern, not mine. Well. This is self-centered to me. I don't want to buy anything from anyone who doesn't treat people with dignity.

It’s inarguably self-centered but entirely practical. I can’t review the employee handbook, employee promoter score, supply chain sustainability reports, and corporate social responsibility policies of everyone I order so much as an $8 pizza from.

There's nothing opaque about the labour relations of the gig-economy.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#310
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said for child labour or health and safety regulation. If a child is desperate enough to work why shouldn't we let them? Why don't we allow workers to choose to work for companies that put their wellbeing at risk? The reason is that it ends up not being a choice of the worker at all, incentives align in such a way that these are no longer an "option" but instead a replacement of existing work/choice…

I mean, I think there's two possible situations, depending on whether something is due to worker choice or company choice. I agree that in a situation where everyone is offering shitty conditions, outlawing shitty conditions makes sense. But in a situation where some companies offer shitty conditions, and lots of people decide to go away from their existing companies and work for the shitty companies , then you have…

This is only holds true if there are more jobs than workers and working these jobs is preferable to unemployment. The reality is that the vast majority of workers are dependent on the decisions of whatever corporation will take them in order to maintain some standard of living.

In your example if we had no unemployment safety nets at all then any form of labour would be justifiable because some workers would choose it over begging/starvation. In fact it is this very argument that is used to justify why people should be allowed to sell themselves into slavery. I believe the preferable alternative to this is to improve those safety nets such that people are able to make a choice on whether that work is worth doing, free from coercion.

> But in a situation where some companies offer shitty conditions, and lots of people decide to go away from their existing companies and work for the shitty companies, then you have to at least entertain the notion that you were wrong about what makes a job shitty.

The problem is that if those shitty conditions allow the company to outcompete, competitors are eventually forced to match those conditions. If we get rid of labour regulation and I start employing children for £0.30/hour my competitors are forced to take a similar step or I'll destroy the majority of them on price alone.

The gig companies do exactly this by shifting the risk of loss on to the worker and relying on information asymmetry between themselves and the worker on the effects of worker competition in order to retain them. In models of traditional employment the company hires and schedules its workers based on forecasted need. If the company mistakenly hires more workers than needed they suffer a reduction in profit. If a gig company "hires" too many employees, the employees make a lower hourly wage and the company increases customer satisfaction due to quicker delivery/ride times. This shifting of risk is what makes gig companies dangerous to the existence of other jobs regardless of whether they're preferable in other ways.

Gig companies are directly incentivised to maximise the "supply" of workers which results in a situation where each additional person signing up reduces the potential earnings of participants in the same area. This is advantageous to the companies but not the workers and that's something that isn't immediately obvious, we have to hope that enough people realise before it becomes the only option.

What makes this even worse is that these companies are burning huge amounts of capital dumping prices/inflating payouts in order to disguise the true costs of their business. The result is that stable businesses are squeezed out artificially.

> In that sense, having some companies with shitty conditions offers an important safety valve to learn that regulations were misguided.

This wouldn't tell you that regulations were misguided unless they happened to be in violation of those regulations. I think that while imperfect public opinion/democratic vote is a much better option than "the invisible hand" for deciding which regulations are valuable.

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