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Vertical farming does not save space

lowtechmagazine.com

391–400 of 464 posts

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#391
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lot of land that isn't suitable for farming We're talking about powering a hydroponic greenhouse. The alternative to "Solar Powered LEDs" isn't "plant things in the ground". Its "make a glass window on your roof". -------- "Plant things in the ground" is also cheaper, though it does suffer from potentially poor soil conditions. Still, it seems to me that spreading fertilizer across soil (and conditioning the soil i…

Or the obvious solution: put hydroponics on traditional close to ground greenhouses... Potentially best of both worlds, if they are sufficiently distributed on outskirts of cities.

Hydroponics is how many commercial growers operate their greenhouses

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it is easier and cheaper to make the land arable or a greenhouse or whatever than equivalent vertical farm + solar. KISS

How exactly do you do that in say the desert? Solar is KISS in many situations.

It's being done in North Africa e.g. Tunisia — https://www.hortidaily.com/article/9128081/newest-semi-close...

A while back I saw a plan for a greenhouse that used solar desalination to provide water for plants but don't know if was ever built

edit: Looks like they exist https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-seawater-greenhouse-...

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#393

Artificial lighting saves land because plants can be grown above each other, but if the electricity for the lighting comes from solar panels, then the savings are canceled out by the land required to install the solar panels. The vertical farm is a paradox unless fossil fuels provide the energy. In that case, there’s not much sustainable about it. This entire piece is based on the assumption that the only sources of…

Author also makes mistake because he assumes all land to be equal. Then second assumption is that power source has to be in the same place as the farm.

Vertical farm can be set up in a place where normal farm would not be possible. One can also imagine that solar panels can be placed on a piece of land that would not be suitable for growing crops.

There is loads of empty land on the world. Land that is worth a lot is close to where all people are and in places where it is fertile and ideally flat.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#394
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsides are common for all forms of electricity generation, but LA’s 2019 1.997c/kWh power purchase agreement is hardly the far future. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/06/28/los-angeles-seeks-rec... Anyway to use a specific example Capacity factor 26.6% (average 2015–2018) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topaz_Solar_Farm . Bulk panels are $0.29 per W or 290$ per kW. PS-P72-330W https://sunelec.com/ If 1kw is worth 0.…

>"0.01997 $/h * 24 * 0.266 * 365 * 20 = 930$" That's a calculation based on 1kW of installed capacity, which is about 3 of those 345W panels so the earning per panel over its lifetime (in sunny southern California btw) is about $310. Also the $ sign goes in front of the number.

Also, here's a B.Sc. paper from my alma mater (English abstract in the paper) http://www.diva-portal.se/smash/get/diva2:1236618/FULLTEXT01... that puts the current all inclusive production cost of nuclear power in Sweden (incl. funding for permanent spent fuel storage) at $0.03/kWh. That's an actual cost for stuff that actually exists today.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#395
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the devil is in the details but I can't see how mirrors will be positioned to support vertical farming. It's be interesting to see some viable ideas (if those exist).

Thinking aloud here; perhaps we could somehow use optical fibers to bend the light from rooftop to vertical farm?

It's beyond my pay grade. I have no idea if 'optical fibers' are an option here. I suspect 'not' only because it hasn't been done already and feels like it if worked for vertical farming, it would also work to supplement office lighting so there is some monetary incentive to get such a system implemented in some way.

The other problem is that you still have the same issue. That is, for every square cm of sunlight you collect the best you could do is direct that light to a square cm of a plant. That is, you can't just increase surface area of collected light so to provide sunlight for vertically stacked plants, you need the equivalent horizontal surface area to support those.

But I have no idea.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Green roofs are a thing, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_roof

A green roof is pretty. It has plenty of upside. It isnt a productive farm which is the appropriate comparison here

>It isnt a productive farm which is the appropriate comparison here

Why would 'vertical farming' be more productive then?

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#397

Artificial lighting saves land because plants can be grown above each other, but if the electricity for the lighting comes from solar panels, then the savings are canceled out by the land required to install the solar panels. The vertical farm is a paradox unless fossil fuels provide the energy. In that case, there’s not much sustainable about it. This entire piece is based on the assumption that the only sources of…

A YouTube video is not the ne plus ultra of scientific presentations, you know.

I remember the first time that someone was telling that fusion would be producing a lot of power by the end of the decade, but I can't remember whether this was the 70s or the 80s.

Considering that humans have yet to produce one joule of net energy from fusion, and the longest anyone has ever run a fusion reactor was 20 seconds, I think you're wildly optimistic.

Indeed, I would say that if America today had working plans for a commercial fusion power plant handed to it by benevolent aliens, between a deliberately broken bureaucracy and the awesome power of the fossil fuel industry, I would be quite surprised if the first plant opened by January 1, 2030. (And I'd suspect that literally billions of kickbacks and graft would have to be paid for the gatekeepers to allow it in.)

(Other more rational, less kleptocratic countries might do better - I'm looking at you, Germany - and paradoxically, fully authoritarian states might also do better.)

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#398
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear is in a bad state in France. Their recent attempts to build new reactors have gone massively over budget. Existing reactors are aging and it looks like they cannot replace them. This is a political problem which has nothing to do to with technology or costs themselves. Most infrastructures are aging and in a bad state in France, and the skills and knowledge to build or replace it has long been lost. Add on…

> This is a political problem which has nothing to do to with technology or costs themselves. No, nowhere in the world is nuclear power economically competitive. Construction costs are about 3x-4x the cost per kW compared to solar or wind. [0 page 11][1] > nuclear is doing fine and growing in many countries, including China. No, net nuclear plants in Asia are not increasing. [0 page 4] [0] https://www.diw.de/document…

> No, nowhere in the world is nuclear power economically competitive.

I only said that the problems in France are mostly due to politics, and so that we cannot use this specific example as an argument. This does not imply any affirmation from me about the absolute costs.

> No, net nuclear plants in Asia are not increasing.

Your link (0) page 4 only shows that the construction rate is not especially increasing lately.

Page 5 of your document (0) shows that almost all reactors I don't have the knowledge or patience to read this further, but it is a very interesting read anyway, thanks.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To elaborate on the topic, there is ample evidence that nuclear energy is by far the most expensive source of energy, when you take into account the government (for example here in France) entirely subsidizing the construction and hypothetical demolition. I say hypothetical because french attempts at "safely dismantling" nuclear power point are not going so well and are over-budget by an order of magnitude. Then thes…

I'm always kind of curious as this "expensive" line of thinking. Yes, nuclear is expensive. Extremely expensive. But is it more expensive than a week's worth of catastrophic grid collapse due to global warming? We have the ability to build nuclear plants. We can reprocess the waste to make more energy with. We can get better at it to drive down the price. It's more reliable as a base load than any renewable. My state…

> But is it more expensive than...

Like you, i don't believe price to be an argument of concern. I'm merely stating this because over and over, both in French media and on HN, i've seen stated that nuclear is the cheapest energy which is a blatant lie.

> We can reprocess the waste to make more energy with.

Source? From my limited understanding, all nuclear research that produced either less-dangerous waste or re-usable waste was shut down decades ago because there was no foreseeable way to turn that into weapons. The nuclear industry is deeply tied to the military industrial complex and (neo)colonial extractivism (see Françafrique networks for references).

> It's more reliable as a base load than any renewable.

Source? Here in France there's uncountable accidents/scandals in the nuclear industry and reactors are often stopped for weeks/months at a time. The same cannot be said about hydro power (dams) for instance.

> I'd pay a few more pennies than that to figure out the rest of this issue

Economic incentives is only part of the problem in my view. We in the industrialized world are aiming for ever-growing (ideally infinite) energy production and consumption, which necessarily leads to ecocide and other environmental damages. Don't you believe reducing our resources/energy footprint as a society is a more sustainable way to address the problem? There are many strategies we can put in place to reduce energy consumption, but these would contradict basic tenets of capitalism. For the most obvious example (from HN's perspective), see planned obsolescence or how/why we build more devices every few years than there are humans on earth (and yet we keep on having to buy new ones, which is severely damaging the environment).

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#400

Artificial lighting saves land because plants can be grown above each other, but if the electricity for the lighting comes from solar panels, then the savings are canceled out by the land required to install the solar panels. The vertical farm is a paradox unless fossil fuels provide the energy. In that case, there’s not much sustainable about it. This entire piece is based on the assumption that the only sources of…

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