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Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#41

Post by fallingknife »

TomGullen wrote: post #30
fallingknife wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense to me. I did some contract work a couple years ago and: 1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn 2. The company set the contract terms 3. The company told me what features to build and could penalize me if I decided not to build some 4. The company could evaluate my performance any way they wanted and terminate the contract at any time for no cause If…

The difference is yours would of been a short defined period, Uber is open ended. You would be entitled to sick pay, holiday etc if you are a worker in effect (if the contract is too long).

It ended up being several months, but the contract was actually written as open ended until notice of termination was given by either party.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#42

Post by lordnacho »

fallingknife wrote: post #22
rogual wrote: post #6

The court made very specific arguments: 1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings t…

This doesn't make sense to me. I did some contract work a couple years ago and: 1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn 2. The company set the contract terms 3. The company told me what features to build and could penalize me if I decided not to build some 4. The company could evaluate my performance any way they wanted and terminate the contract at any time for no cause If…

I get the feeling the real issue is not these four points, which are legalistic and vague.

The issue is whether you can pay someone way less than what they'd otherwise be paid for the same work, just by saying they're contractors. A lot of software contractors get paid quite a lot more than comparable salaried employees, so they don't complain.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#43

Post by mytailorisrich »

habosa wrote: post #10

Really interested to see what this does to Deliveroo. I live in central London on a pretty busy street and it's really wild how many Deliveroo drivers there are. In front of most of the popular takeaway restaurants there are 3-5 drivers waiting at any given time. The increase in delivery and decrease in normal foot traffic during the pandemic has made this really stick out. Deliveroo already totally robs these restau…

> I assume this will cause Deliveroo to either increase fees or reduce service which may inspire more restuarants to hire their own delivery people again.

Before Deliveroo (and similar services) restaurants (in UK/Europe since you discuss London) did not offer delivery at all.

Handling the whole order (which these days means online/through an app) and delivery in-house is costly and restaurants use Deliveroo because it makes commercial sense.

Generally the issue is that, on the one hand I don't think that people are willing to pay much for delivery while, on the other hand, delivery is very low productivity and it's not viable to pay delivery drivers much for this.

As someone else commented 20-30% of an order is not crazy compared to the cost of serving on-premises. Moreover, Deliveroo can only charge this to restaurants if they have a deal with them.

Low productivity and cost pressures are also why "dark kitchens" are developing: They save on the cost of having a full-blown restaurant geared for on-premises service and they cut travel times for drivers (they can go to a single location and collect from multiple collocated kitchens).

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#44

Post by helsinkiandrew »

fallingknife wrote: post #22
rogual wrote: post #6

The court made very specific arguments: 1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings t…

This doesn't make sense to me. I did some contract work a couple years ago and: 1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn 2. The company set the contract terms 3. The company told me what features to build and could penalize me if I decided not to build some 4. The company could evaluate my performance any way they wanted and terminate the contract at any time for no cause If…

In the UK, IR35 legislation (introduction delayed because of covid) would probably designated you as a 'disguised’ employee - ie contracting only to get the tax benefits of working via an intermediary company (less tax, paying yourself as dividends etc).

https://www.hiscox.co.uk/business-blog/what-is-ir35-and-what...

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#45

Post by MatekCopatek »

austhrow743 wrote: post #24
habosa wrote: post #10

Really interested to see what this does to Deliveroo. I live in central London on a pretty busy street and it's really wild how many Deliveroo drivers there are. In front of most of the popular takeaway restaurants there are 3-5 drivers waiting at any given time. The increase in delivery and decrease in normal foot traffic during the pandemic has made this really stick out. Deliveroo already totally robs these restau…

20-30% to not have to have a dining area and be in a trendy location sounds pretty good.

Sure, but you could always do that and be delivery-only without paying anyone. I think the service you're getting here is primarily the exposure of being on a popular platform.

That and them handling the order process.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#46

Post by mellosouls »

rogual wrote: post #6

The court made very specific arguments: 1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings t…

Exactly - that was my reaction as well.

This is a fair judgement. I support zero-hours contracts in a balanced and non-exploitative relationship where the "self-employed" label is not just lip-service.

This was clearly not the case according to the first 3 of those observations.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#47

Post by fallingknife »

kjakm wrote: post #35
fallingknife wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense to me. I did some contract work a couple years ago and: 1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn 2. The company set the contract terms 3. The company told me what features to build and could penalize me if I decided not to build some 4. The company could evaluate my performance any way they wanted and terminate the contract at any time for no cause If…

>> 1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn This rate would have been negotiated by you. You then agreed to a specific rate. The price of Uber rides varies based on demand so the driver doesn't know the price in advance + even if they did they are not allowed to refuse the ride.

Variable pricing based on demand is definitely an unusual feature of Uber's contract, but it would also be nearly unheard of in a full time employee's pay structure. So I don't see how it could be used as a determining factor that defines this contract as an employee/employer relationship.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#48

Post by orlp »

roel_v wrote: post #40
habosa wrote: post #10

Really interested to see what this does to Deliveroo. I live in central London on a pretty busy street and it's really wild how many Deliveroo drivers there are. In front of most of the popular takeaway restaurants there are 3-5 drivers waiting at any given time. The increase in delivery and decrease in normal foot traffic during the pandemic has made this really stick out. Deliveroo already totally robs these restau…

I feel really bad for small restaurant owners. These large delivery companies totally take over their internet marketing too, registering a domain like ' - .com' and when you go to that website, you really have to pay attention to see that this is not the 'official' restaurant website and if you order through there, it's costing the restaurant a lot of money that they wouldn't miss out on if you'd order through their…

This should be straight up illegal and the companies sued to hell for. If I opened a site claiming to be a bank and accepting money on behalf of that bank, and keeping 20% I'd be behind bars for fraud in no time.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#49

Post by learnstats2 »

fallingknife wrote: post #22
rogual wrote: post #6

The court made very specific arguments: 1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings t…

This doesn't make sense to me. I did some contract work a couple years ago and: 1. The company set the hourly rate which meant they dictated how much I could earn 2. The company set the contract terms 3. The company told me what features to build and could penalize me if I decided not to build some 4. The company could evaluate my performance any way they wanted and terminate the contract at any time for no cause If…

It's very possible that you would have been declared employed if you took it to a tribunal or if it was otherwise challenged. This happens plenty often.

It's hard to tell from the information you have given us, but it sounds like it could be an employer-employee type relationship.

You can take an online test here: https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/check-employment-status-for-t...

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#50

Post by lovedswain »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #43
habosa wrote: post #10

Really interested to see what this does to Deliveroo. I live in central London on a pretty busy street and it's really wild how many Deliveroo drivers there are. In front of most of the popular takeaway restaurants there are 3-5 drivers waiting at any given time. The increase in delivery and decrease in normal foot traffic during the pandemic has made this really stick out. Deliveroo already totally robs these restau…

> I assume this will cause Deliveroo to either increase fees or reduce service which may inspire more restuarants to hire their own delivery people again. Before Deliveroo (and similar services) restaurants (in UK/Europe since you discuss London) did not offer delivery at all. Handling the whole order (which these days means online/through an app) and delivery in-house is costly and restaurants use Deliveroo because…

> Before Deliveroo (and similar services) restaurants did not offer delivery at all.

This is far from universally true, especially Asian takeaways typically hired their own driver, but the practice was also commonplace for many actual restaurants too

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