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Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

lichess.org

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Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#81

Post by kevinwang »

siilats wrote: post #74
cambalache wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are a sketchy company, from the over-zealousness to defend their "IP" to the price they demand for their yearly software, to the creepy vibe their articles about young female players have. So no sympathy from me, go stockfish.

Im looking at the diff, they doubled the size of NN and added themselves as additional authors in addition to the original authors and released source when requested. I.e. they gave credit to original devs, I don't understand where they violated anything. NN weights is data not code.

Yes but read the article. It's the way the "author" presented the work as novel that's indefensibly hucksterish

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#82

Post by jraph »

im3w1l wrote: post #79
PeterisP wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pulling the download isn't sufficient if it has already been downloaded - either they have to offer the source to everyone who downloaded, or they have infringed copyright by this distribution and can be justifiably sued for that. However, this article implies that nobody really cares about them releasing the source, as it seems that it does not have any interesting improvements.

Yeah if they pull it they need to release current modifications, but not future ones.

And they only need to provide the modifications to people who downloaded it I think.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#83

Post by lokischild »

wobblyasp wrote: post #2

As long as the license allowed it, I'm not seeing the issue. Sure; it's a less-then-advertised product, but the world is full of those. If people want to drop 100$ on something that doesn't work as well as the free alternative, more power to them. People do it everyday in the real world.

You completely missed the point. If people buying this KNEW it was just a free engine with minor tinkering (that apparently even makes it weaker), they would most definitely reconsider. It is the false advertising (https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/fat_fritz_2, https://en.chessbase.com/post/interview-with-albert-silver-h...) and pretending that is morally bankrupt.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#84

Post by [deleted] »

1337shadow wrote: post #44
vdddv wrote: post #16

Many commenters are missing that the issue is not that an Open Source project was repackaged as a commercial project, but that the open source origin has been hidden.

> Many commenters are missing that the issue is not that an Open Source project was repackaged as a commercial project, but that the open source origin has been hidden. That is not what Joost VandeVondele, current maintainer of the Stockfish project, posts: > Recently, ChessBase has started distribution and sales of the Fat Fritz 2 chess engine. This chess engine is a Stockfish derivative, with a few lines of code mo…

[deleted]

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#85

Post by lokischild »

tudelo wrote: post #15
wobblyasp wrote: post #2

As long as the license allowed it, I'm not seeing the issue. Sure; it's a less-then-advertised product, but the world is full of those. If people want to drop 100$ on something that doesn't work as well as the free alternative, more power to them. People do it everyday in the real world.

And I might be the only idiot here, but I tried to run stockfish from source and it was not an instant process. In addition, there isn't really a front end, you essentially end up with a CLI to input moves. And for those who say, hey you, there are prebuilt binaries, just download them! Check out this message [1] " The binaries at the top of the table are fastest, but may not support all CPUs. If you don't know which…

There are literally hundreds of FREE stockfish packages with frontend all good to go. To ask 99$ and lie through your teeth when it comes to authorship and performance is a ruse to rip people off, with the help of a famous name, plain and simple.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#86

Post by atdt »

brutal_chaos_ wrote: post #36
gwd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and if they're breaking the license, don't "name and shame"; send them a C&D. And if that's ignored, sue them. Seriously, there's some attitude in open source circles that looks down on using the law to achieve compliance. Why bother putting up such a carefully thought-out legal document, and then whining on a blog when it's broken, instead of using it for its intended purpose -- a court of law?

Quicker, cheaper, and probably feels good in the moment. The law can work if you have time and money. Also, due to the ill view of patents on this forum, I imagine people here are simply put off from using the law and thus opt for the dopamine hit.

Public shaming can be remarkably effective and does not preclude legal action later on if shame itself is insufficient.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#87

Post by mosselman »

cambalache wrote: post #58
cven714 wrote: post #52

ChessBase is selling this Stockfish clone for €99.90. They have also disabled comments on all of their articles so far about Fat Fritz 2. Not a good look. Related Article on Lichess (which is also open source) about Fat Fritz 2: https://lichess.org/blog/YCvy7xMAACIA8007/fat-fritz-2-is-a-r...

They are a sketchy company, from the over-zealousness to defend their "IP" to the price they demand for their yearly software, to the creepy vibe their articles about young female players have. So no sympathy from me, go stockfish.

Do you have any links for these things?

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#88

Post by boarquantile »

ITT: People missing the point by making it about software licenses, when the real issue is lying about the product.

ChessBase could easily comply with any open source license by linking the full source code, including the method they used to generate NN weights (if they think the license applies here as well), in a footnote.

It would still be a scam, because their claims of superiority, originality ("almost from scratch"), and innovation (see the funny part about technology from Japan) are wrong, and purposely so.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#89

Post by arnaudsm »

wobblyasp wrote: post #2

As long as the license allowed it, I'm not seeing the issue. Sure; it's a less-then-advertised product, but the world is full of those. If people want to drop 100$ on something that doesn't work as well as the free alternative, more power to them. People do it everyday in the real world.

Just like dropshipping, it may be legal but is amoral to many people. And informing the general public is important.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#90

Post by tromp »

cven714 wrote: post #52

ChessBase is selling this Stockfish clone for €99.90. They have also disabled comments on all of their articles so far about Fat Fritz 2. Not a good look. Related Article on Lichess (which is also open source) about Fat Fritz 2: https://lichess.org/blog/YCvy7xMAACIA8007/fat-fritz-2-is-a-r...

Feel free to express your disgust by leaving feedback for the ChessBase editors at e.g.

https://en.chessbase.com/feedback/fat-fritz-2-best-of-both-w...

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