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How and why I stopped buying new laptops

lowtechmagazine.com

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Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#61

Post by forgotmypw17 »

paulcole wrote: post #45
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you underestimate the impact of one new device being produced. Also, there is the matter of being complicit, whether or not your choice makes a 'real' impact.

I do not underestimate it. I eat a plant based diet, live in a tiny apartment, will never have children, and never fly (have never driven a car either). I’m complicit. A person can buy a used laptop and they’re still complicit, too. Sure, they can say “I’m not part of the problem” and feel good about it but that’s what people do. Bury their heads in the sand and make themselves feel good. It’s why we’re in the mess w…

You're right that we are all complicit...

In my mind, I sometimes get this visual of that scene from Full Metal Jacket, the one with the towel and bar of soap...

I get that sense that we're all taking turns thwacking our biome/biosphere/relatives a couple of times and then passing it...

I commend you on your efforts to reduce your complicity and sharing your successes for our inspiration. Thank you.

(I still think anything is better than brand new when it comes to electronics, but you're way ahead of the pack.)

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#62

Post by Bancakes »

underseacables wrote: post #35

What frustrates me is that the continual push forward of major operating systems forces you to purchase a new laptop. I have a 2013 MacBook that works wonderfully but Apple no longer provides updates for it, and eventually the browsers will stop supporting it. It’s almost like there is a general movement towards forcing us to buy new technology by rendering older devices obsolete.

Sometimes old software can't keep up with new hardware. E.g. the FOSS alternative nvidia drivers for linux Nouveau. Totally uncompetitive - no support for the last 3-4 generations and the ones that run are just better than software rendering.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#63

Post by ivanmaeder »

jaimex2 wrote: post #12

It's usually just Apple people cycling their macbooks every "new shiny" release. Most people on PCs run them into the ground over 6-8 years.

Apple should tone down the way they promote their products.

They can't keep pretending to be aligned with the environment and then put on a big show every year for products that provide tiny incremental benefits. I'm thinking mostly of the iPhone, but even things like M1: yes it's a step forward but that doesn't mean I *need* one right now.

For the record, I'm using a 2012 MacBook Air (8GB) for everything. The fans will spin up sometimes when browsing, or when Docker becomes uncontrollable, but it does everything I ask and it doesn't feel at all slow.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#64

Post by pjerem »

paulcole wrote: post #43
throwaway3699 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those things you've listed at the end make life worth living. No, we need to make those things more environmentally friendly, not regress as a species.

I never said they didn’t. I said don’t delude yourself that buying a used laptop has any real impact on the environment. There’s simply no way to have a biological child and be environmentally friendly. Can’t put it any more simply. I’ve got no issue with people who want biological kids. Just acknowledge that it’s a selfish choice and don’t pretend that you can buy a used laptop like that matters in the slightest.

I think you underestimate network effect.

What is important is not your direct impact on environment by using a old computer.

But what really is, is : - proving to the world around you that the same work can be done with a good old computer for 10x less money. - proving yourself that life can be lived without buying new things every once a while (computers, cars, furniture ...) - enabling basically everyone to have access to a decent computer, and to the internet - it forces you to understand how such a central concept of our era just works and how you, as a human being, have the power to make it work as long as possible

I know it can be difficult to understand this on HN, but the vast majority of humanity doesn't have any control over the computer they use. The industry just telled them that computers are complex and "sort of magic" objects that just works or get irremediably slow.

So, the real impact on the environment you have by using "old" computers, is proving to yourself, and to the world - including your kids - , that caring about what you already own is an enjoyable way to live full of real gratifications that are not just the dopamine peak you've got when you unbox a new computer.

For your point on the kids, I agree with you. But kids are just the number one reason we try to keep this planet livable. What's the point of preserving this planet if the humanity is going to die in the next 100 years ? We are talking about keeping our home livable, not a collective suicide.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#65

Post by paulcole »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #61
paulcole wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not underestimate it. I eat a plant based diet, live in a tiny apartment, will never have children, and never fly (have never driven a car either). I’m complicit. A person can buy a used laptop and they’re still complicit, too. Sure, they can say “I’m not part of the problem” and feel good about it but that’s what people do. Bury their heads in the sand and make themselves feel good. It’s why we’re in the mess w…

You're right that we are all complicit... In my mind, I sometimes get this visual of that scene from Full Metal Jacket, the one with the towel and bar of soap... I get that sense that we're all taking turns thwacking our biome/biosphere/relatives a couple of times and then passing it... I commend you on your efforts to reduce your complicity and sharing your successes for our inspiration. Thank you. (I still think an…

No need to thank me. I’m no altruist. The decisions I’ve made are selfish and ones that let me live the life I want.

If I found out tomorrow that the Earth was cooling too fast and I needed to start driving, flying, and running the heat constantly in my giant house for the good of everyone, I wouldn’t do it.

I like not driving, not flying, and living in a tiny apartment. It’s just fortunate that these things are also “good” for the planet.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#66

Post by timw4mail »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #44

This is one of the reasons I thoroughly test my websites on older hardware and browsers. Just got finished doing basic testing on an G4 Mac with Firefox 2.x and similar vintage Safari and IE. Internet+Web is amazing, almost miraculous technology, enabling even 25-year-old devices adequate access with a little bit of forethought.

How do you deal with TLS?

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#67

Post by D13Fd »

On the economic component, it all depends on how valuable money is to you. That sounds funny but it's different for everyone. For some people the $1-3k for a new laptop is a major investment, and for some it's not. If you're using the laptop to work and your employer is billing someone hundreds of dollars per hour for your work, having the best possible laptop is kind of a no brainer.

On the environmental component, every little bit helps, but there is a huge energy efficiency difference between new and (very) old laptops. Plus, if you are spending time on the laptop trying to make things work right, you are burning energy. And there are many other ways to control your impact on the environment in more significant ways, including by decisions about how to heat/cool your home, where to live and how far to commute, what kind of car you drive, where and how you get your food, how many children you have, etc.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#68

Post by pjmlp »

D13Fd wrote: post #67

On the economic component, it all depends on how valuable money is to you. That sounds funny but it's different for everyone. For some people the $1-3k for a new laptop is a major investment, and for some it's not. If you're using the laptop to work and your employer is billing someone hundreds of dollars per hour for your work, having the best possible laptop is kind of a no brainer. On the environmental component,…

You would be impressed how many consultign sweet shops are billing someone hundreds of dollars per hour, while having their employees carrying around a cheap Dell/Thinkpad i5, 8GB, HDD.

With luck they either get the customer's IT to also deliver a laptop for development, or some cheap cloud instance with similar specs to the laptop.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#69

Post by 0_____0 »

stickfigure wrote: post #51
0_____0 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can confirm, am still running a late-2015 macbook as my daily driver. it still works really well and despite trying to convince myself otherwise, I can't think of a good reason to replace it.

I've been using a (max'd) 2015 Macbook Pro as a dev box for... a long time now. I'm about 2 hours into the upgrade to an M1 air. The difference is... jaw dropping.

I gave it serious thought but I run a decent amount of CAD software on Windows via boot camp. If I was MacOS only I might have given it a go.

Re: How and why I stopped buying new laptops

#70

Post by Grustaf »

RikNieu wrote: post #39
underseacables wrote: post #35

What frustrates me is that the continual push forward of major operating systems forces you to purchase a new laptop. I have a 2013 MacBook that works wonderfully but Apple no longer provides updates for it, and eventually the browsers will stop supporting it. It’s almost like there is a general movement towards forcing us to buy new technology by rendering older devices obsolete.

Yes, this movement is called quarterly reports.

No. Apple is doing a wonderful job of making old hardware work for a long time. It's just that there is a limit to how far you can take this while also keep innovating and pushing the envelope.
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