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Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

lichess.org

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Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#31

Post by bonzini »

ufo wrote: post #28

This article is light on the details about this being a GPL license violation or not. The final paragraph also makes it sound like Stockfish is under a permissive license (only requiring attribution) when in fact it's licensed under the copyleft GPLv3.

It was, but according to Wikipedia they sorted that out by moving the proprietary neural network out of the executable. If this is correct, it means that the source is available and the nature of the changes (including removing the original authors) should be visible.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#32

Post by orwin »

deeeeplearning wrote: post #3

> Everyone is allowed to copy Stockfish/Leela and sell them, provided the terms of the Stockfish/Leela license are met. But don’t pretend that the product being sold is something it isn’t. What's the issue? Did OS contributors suddenly realize you can make money off software? They're upset at marketers doing marketing? Don't understand the downvotes. If they violated the terms of the license or did something illegal…

It's a scam (it doesn't even use the best version of stockfish, so much for "the best chess engine available").

Moreover, it infringe GPL. I would love if a country started enforcing GPL with huge fines. Company-destroying fines.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#33

Post by btilly »

aaron695 wrote: post #26
vdddv wrote: post #16

Many commenters are missing that the issue is not that an Open Source project was repackaged as a commercial project, but that the open source origin has been hidden.

> but that the open source origin has been hidden. What is the specific licensing issue here? If this is about them not liking the product, fine, but don't dirty the open source ethos unless they are breaking the license. Part of the problem is the current HN headline perhaps.

The specific licensing issue is that both are under GPL v3.0. Which means that you can sell a derivative, but you have to clearly advertise that it wasn't your work, provide source upon request, and so on.

They did none of this and so are in copyright violation. And so should be sued.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#34

Post by gwd »

aaron695 wrote: post #26
vdddv wrote: post #16

Many commenters are missing that the issue is not that an Open Source project was repackaged as a commercial project, but that the open source origin has been hidden.

> but that the open source origin has been hidden. What is the specific licensing issue here? If this is about them not liking the product, fine, but don't dirty the open source ethos unless they are breaking the license. Part of the problem is the current HN headline perhaps.

...and if they're breaking the license, don't "name and shame"; send them a C&D. And if that's ignored, sue them.

Seriously, there's some attitude in open source circles that looks down on using the law to achieve compliance. Why bother putting up such a carefully thought-out legal document, and then whining on a blog when it's broken, instead of using it for its intended purpose -- a court of law?

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#35

Post by gwd »

orwin wrote: post #32
deeeeplearning wrote: post #3

> Everyone is allowed to copy Stockfish/Leela and sell them, provided the terms of the Stockfish/Leela license are met. But don’t pretend that the product being sold is something it isn’t. What's the issue? Did OS contributors suddenly realize you can make money off software? They're upset at marketers doing marketing? Don't understand the downvotes. If they violated the terms of the license or did something illegal…

It's a scam (it doesn't even use the best version of stockfish, so much for "the best chess engine available"). Moreover, it infringe GPL. I would love if a country started enforcing GPL with huge fines. Company-destroying fines.

The only people who can enforce the GPL are the people who own the copyright of the code infringed. They may be able to win huge fines, but (with some infamous exceptions) generally aim more for compliance than punishment.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#36

Post by brutal_chaos_ »

gwd wrote: post #34
aaron695 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but that the open source origin has been hidden. What is the specific licensing issue here? If this is about them not liking the product, fine, but don't dirty the open source ethos unless they are breaking the license. Part of the problem is the current HN headline perhaps.

...and if they're breaking the license, don't "name and shame"; send them a C&D. And if that's ignored, sue them. Seriously, there's some attitude in open source circles that looks down on using the law to achieve compliance. Why bother putting up such a carefully thought-out legal document, and then whining on a blog when it's broken, instead of using it for its intended purpose -- a court of law?

Quicker, cheaper, and probably feels good in the moment. The law can work if you have time and money.

Also, due to the ill view of patents on this forum, I imagine people here are simply put off from using the law and thus opt for the dopamine hit.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#37

Post by deeeeplearning »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #11
deeeeplearning wrote: post #3

> Everyone is allowed to copy Stockfish/Leela and sell them, provided the terms of the Stockfish/Leela license are met. But don’t pretend that the product being sold is something it isn’t. What's the issue? Did OS contributors suddenly realize you can make money off software? They're upset at marketers doing marketing? Don't understand the downvotes. If they violated the terms of the license or did something illegal…

If a seller only gets sales because of the ignorance of their customers, it's a rip off. I'd be annoyed if my work was being used to rip people off, even if no licence terms or laws were being broken.

Sounds like SOP for American business to me.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#38

Post by deeeeplearning »

orwin wrote: post #32
deeeeplearning wrote: post #3

> Everyone is allowed to copy Stockfish/Leela and sell them, provided the terms of the Stockfish/Leela license are met. But don’t pretend that the product being sold is something it isn’t. What's the issue? Did OS contributors suddenly realize you can make money off software? They're upset at marketers doing marketing? Don't understand the downvotes. If they violated the terms of the license or did something illegal…

It's a scam (it doesn't even use the best version of stockfish, so much for "the best chess engine available"). Moreover, it infringe GPL. I would love if a country started enforcing GPL with huge fines. Company-destroying fines.

>It's a scam (it doesn't even use the best version of stockfish, so much for "the best chess engine available").

Have you used the internet or turned on a Tv in the last 20 years? Do you really think Dodge has "The Best Truck in the world" or that Verizon really has the "fastest 5g in America". This is marketing 101 for any business in the US.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#39

Post by tutfbhuf »

bonzini wrote: post #31
ufo wrote: post #28

This article is light on the details about this being a GPL license violation or not. The final paragraph also makes it sound like Stockfish is under a permissive license (only requiring attribution) when in fact it's licensed under the copyleft GPLv3.

It was, but according to Wikipedia they sorted that out by moving the proprietary neural network out of the executable. If this is correct, it means that the source is available and the nature of the changes (including removing the original authors) should be visible.

https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/blob/master/...

Stockfish _is_ currently licensed under GPLv3. Chessbase is allowed to sell a modified copy, but only under the same license and they have to provide the source.

Re: Open source chess developers warn about a commercial engine based on Stockfish

#40

Post by bonzini »

tutfbhuf wrote: post #39
bonzini wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was, but according to Wikipedia they sorted that out by moving the proprietary neural network out of the executable. If this is correct, it means that the source is available and the nature of the changes (including removing the original authors) should be visible.

https://github.com/official-stockfish/Stockfish/blob/master/... Stockfish _is_ currently licensed under GPLv3. Chessbase is allowed to sell a modified copy, but only under the same license and they have to provide the source.

The neural network is just data, but if it's part of the executable you need to provide the raw data that is then linked into the executable.
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