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Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

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Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#181

Post by hnburnsy »

wahern wrote: post #132
Lammy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't have to be this way :( https://www.energy-net.org/01NUKE/CALIF.HTM "Northern California is the home of the first successful opposition to the promotion and development of commercial nuclear reactors in the U.S. In the 1950's northern and central California's privately owned utility company, PG&E, was planning to be one of the giants in the new field of nuclear energy."

Nevada or even Mexico could play regulatory arbitrage, build nuclear plants in their jurisdictions, and export the electricity to California. I suppose Mexico might be cheaper as Nevada lacks water, particularly in remote regions where there'd be the least local resistance. Baja California has the Pacific and the Gulf of California; Sonora has the Gulf of California. California's unique history of opposition to nucle…

Arizona does this (see Palo Verde Generating Station, the largest power plant in the US by generation) and I benefit with $0.05230 per kWh off peak (off peak is 8 pm - 3 pm on weekdays, all day on weekends and 10 holidays).

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#182

Post by gonzo »

yellowapple wrote: post #99
CydeWeys wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is used on the Big Island, which is the newest island. Unfortunately most people live on the older islands, which aren't above the volcanic hotspot anymore. And the islands are far enough apart that they all have their own independent electrical grids.

Even if they ain't directly on the hot spot, couldn't they still be close enough to it for there to be a useful temperature differential?

There were attempts to use the ocean for a heat sorce/sink for downtown AC.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#183

Post by jillesvangurp »

jedberg wrote: post #2

I need more context. Is that a lot? Is that low? Is it a big change from before? In what direction?

It's a lot, it's 0.9 $/kwh, which depending on where you live is about 10-30x the retail price of electricity under normal circumstances. If it's only for a few days/weeks, it's not going to matter a lot (financially) to most. Of course there are a few people who are going to get squeezed hard by this and I imagine some businesses are also going to have some hefty bills.

It's tempting to single out technologies or particular energy sources here as the problem or solution. But the bottom line is that this is fundamentally a policy failure and not a technical problem. Price incentives and signals are probably part of both the problem and solution here. Although none of that will matter this winter of course.

The long term effect of this kind of price instability becoming a regular thing combined with frequent blackouts are going to be interesting. IMHO it's a great opportunity for technology that is basically proven to be highly effective both in providing grid resilience and cost reductions; i.e. clean tech. Nothing like 10x spikes in bills becoming a regular thing to cause people to look for solutions.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#184

Post by cbozeman »

xx789 wrote: post #148
athollywood wrote: post #87

Texas electric prices have been capped at $9000/MWHr for the last few days. Average is about $35/MWhr. The Texas electric bill is about $10 billion per day right now.

Looks around 1k right now. http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/contours/rtmLmp.html There must be lots of generators making bank.

When this winter storm set in, I switched from grid power to my natural gas generator. I have a 48kW Generac attached to a 1000 gallon natural gas tank. The tank also feeds all my gas appliances and fireplaces in my home. At the current rate of usage, I have another 24 days on which to operate.

Where most people are paying enormous rates, I purchased my whole tank of gas for $940, plus delivery fee.

I have strongly recommended to my friends to have generators installed and to buy their own natural gas storage tanks to power them. While my personal setup was about $20,000 fully installed and hooked up, you can easily get a 24kW model that would power most homes 2000-2500 sq. ft. easily, for about $7000-$9000.

Best part is, many whole home generator providers will allow you to finance if the upfront costs are too burdensome.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#185

Post by jahmed »

function_seven wrote: post #149
mayli wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra... https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHED...

Yikes. I’m in California but pay 17¢/kWh including the fixed monthly costs. (My tiers are 10.5¢, 16.8¢, and 19.1¢) I love my municipal utility.

I was curious and I pay 11¢ in Colorado.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#186

Post by bestnameever »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #172

Note there are three tabs in this graphic: Day-ahead, 15 minute, and real-time. Day-ahead contracts are high because uncertainty is also high. 15 minute and real-time prices are an order of magnitude lower, despite the sun being down and electric heaters presumably consuming a lot of electricity. Energy companies need to decide how much of their capacity they want to lock in at the high $900 rate for tomorrow, and ho…

> 15 minute and real-time prices are an order of magnitude lower, despite the sun being down and electric heaters presumably consuming a lot of electricity.

Not everywhere. I'm seeing prices exceeding $900 when I select real-time. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but take a look at so cal.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#187

Post by hnburnsy »

wahern wrote: post #132
Lammy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't have to be this way :( https://www.energy-net.org/01NUKE/CALIF.HTM "Northern California is the home of the first successful opposition to the promotion and development of commercial nuclear reactors in the U.S. In the 1950's northern and central California's privately owned utility company, PG&E, was planning to be one of the giants in the new field of nuclear energy."

Nevada or even Mexico could play regulatory arbitrage, build nuclear plants in their jurisdictions, and export the electricity to California. I suppose Mexico might be cheaper as Nevada lacks water, particularly in remote regions where there'd be the least local resistance. Baja California has the Pacific and the Gulf of California; Sonora has the Gulf of California. California's unique history of opposition to nucle…

Fun fact, California entities own 27% of Palo Verde Generating Station in Arizona.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#188

Post by zippergz »

jeffbee wrote: post #82
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California it’s about 30 to 40 cents kWh during normal times.

The average price paid for residential^W power in California last year was 16 cents, not 30, not 40.

Maybe that is the statewide average, but I've haven't paid anything close to that low in years.

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#189

Post by mnklo »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #88
mnklo wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables are more than capable of supplying "base load". What you're referring to is a fallacy.

I'm sorry but it's not that simple, as you can see clearly right now. Between Feb 9 and Feb 17th wind and solar energy delivery has been a very small fraction of capacity, less than 10%. To do baseload over a period of 8 days with that kind of resource would require roughly a 20x capacity overbuild and some kind of ridiculous battery. It's just not practical. Most realistic scenarios these days have lots of wind and…

I think you're overcomplicating the situation. A mix of renewable sources is quite stable, and there are more ways to store energy than just batteries. Here's a paper debunking the baseload myth.

http://www.ceem.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/uploads/publ...

A 10GW solar farm is already in the pipeline for northern Australia:

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12785256

Re: Electricity over $900/MWh in most of Western US now

#190

Post by bmurray7jhu »

gshubert17 wrote: post #179
bmurray7jhu wrote: post #15

Likely corresponds to the nationwide spike in natural gas prices. Even in California, natural gas prices are an order of magnitude higher than usual. Prices appear to have hit ~$90 per quadrillion BTU, versus a typical price of ~$2 per 10^15 BTU https://www.naturalgasintel.com/data-snapshot/daily-gpi/CALR...

> ~$90 per quadrillion BTU I think this misreads the abbreviation MM BTU (where M in this case is the Roman numeral thousand or "mille" rather than the metric million or "mega"). 1 MM BTU = 10^6 BTU, not 10^15. A therm is 10^5 BTU. Last month I paid $77 for 117 therms, or about 66 cents/therm. This would be $6.6 per MM BTU. By the way that was 126 ccf (ccf = 100 cubic feet) or 12600 cubic feet (357 cubic meters). As…

Good catch
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