Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#721

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #695

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-gua…

> as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode"

Zero chance Facebook doesn't do this with Instagram. Zero chance large employers don't do this with their surveillance software.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#722

Post by echelon » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

bstar77 wrote: post #713

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

Umm, I tinker on the raspberry pi 4 my son and I share. We tinker on our gaming PCs. We also tinker on our retro electronics (game consoles, computers and receivers). I don’t have any urge to tinker with my phone, iPad or MacBook’s hardware- and that’s why I have them. We do build software via Xcode & Unity, which is an amazing experience, but I’m ok with the hardware being mostly static. This whole “modern computers…

You're not the only person in the world, though. But even more importantly, you shouldn't just think of Apple owners, but the entire economic landscape. The businesses that have to raise prices, the startups that have to fight for app store approval, the people wanting to get out immediate fixes, the experimenters wanting to push the platform further than they're allowed...

Nevermind the "famers should own their equipment" argument that states that all general purpose computing devices should allow their owners to run whatever programs they want. The fact that Apple controls banking, dating, email, and a million other economic and social functions should be even more reason. That's an unhealthy amount of power.

Apple shouldn't be able to force literally every company in America to dance to their beat to reach 50% of American consumers.

Really think about it.

Apple controls access to 50% of Americans.

That's monopoly. Only the US Government is more successful in its taxing and regulation regime, and this is theoretically used for the betterment of all citizens rather than just shareholders.

Apple subtracts from our whole industry to add to itself. They're acting like a republic of their own. They're downright impossible to avoid if you want to build a successful business.

Give up your Apple fandom for a moment and think about this.

Is this healthy?

Would you still be happy with it if it were Windows Phone instead of iPhone? Would you still defend it?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#723

Post by dmitriid » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

kaba0 wrote: post #689

suifbwish wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is if I wanted or cared about that I would get one of those phones. The consumer gets to decide which phone they use and one of the reasons I like the iPhone is actually the difficulty in adding 3rd party crapware. If I needed a phone that I can install stuff on from unverified markets I would get an android and do it completely separately from my iPhone. I like that Apple is an appliance that is what it’s…

That’s the thing, there is no such phone. And frankly, there will not be more mobile platforms because even the current two is already much for companies to develop for. Free market doesn’t work that way. Linux phones might rise, but only if they gain a good android compat layer.

> And frankly, there will not be more mobile platforms because even the current two is already much for companies to develop for. Free market doesn’t work that way.

How do you imagine free market works? No companies magically capture the midshare of most users? No companies have anough money/resources to corner the market?

Literally nothing prevents any of the current players in the "non-free market" to develop their own phone. Heck, Microsoft even tried to do it.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#724

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #684

kaba0 wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry but it an astonishingly stupid take. Apple and android DO have a duopoly, and it is bad for every phone owner. Also, allowing me to install whatever app I want with eg a hidden setting like enable developer mode will not hinder your walled garden at all. It won’t case the Apple Store to disappear, simply other alternatives will have a place. And yes your last point: there is no good choice. So that’s your s…

>I’m sorry but it an astonishingly stupid take. To you. >Apple and android DO have a duopoly, and it is bad for every phone owner. Google owns over 85% of the worldwide smartphone market. I agree that we need more competition. This competition should come from breaking Google/Android into 4 pieces, and then we'll have 5 companies with 15-25% market.

That would be great, but it will not happen. There is an optimal number for phone platforms that can exist at the same time and for which companies will develop apps for. And that number seems to be 2. I really hope linux phones can provide an alternative but their only chance for even a most minimal success is perfect interop with existing Android applications.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#725

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677

thereddaikon wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you called it sideloading just shows how successful Apple has been in warping people's perception of it over the years. Installing the software you want on your compute device isn't sideloading. Its just installing software. Apple is aberration here not all of the users who just expect to actually own the products they buy.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

[deleted]

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#726

Post by hacknat » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

suifbwish wrote: post #662

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

The thing is if I wanted or cared about that I would get one of those phones. The consumer gets to decide which phone they use and one of the reasons I like the iPhone is actually the difficulty in adding 3rd party crapware. If I needed a phone that I can install stuff on from unverified markets I would get an android and do it completely separately from my iPhone. I like that Apple is an appliance that is what it’s…

You could continue to not install those 3rd party apps if Apple was forced to open their platform.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#727

Post by tveita » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #695

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-gua…

> Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..."

From Netflix' perspective that still adds considerable UX friction, and some percentage of potential customers will drop off.

At what percentage cut is it better for them to just stay in the Apple store? 10%? 5%? 2%? At any of those rates Apple still makes boatloads of money.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#728

Post by ahiknsr » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

elefanten wrote: post #695

Dma54rhs wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's depressing that even on hackernews where you expect people want to tinker and have control over their machines there's a probably a majority who are happy with the situation and use the think of my grandma (aka children) using iPhone situation. There could be numerous ways for Apple to let people run their own software or other stores without giving your grandma malware.

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-gua…

>Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode".

Android already allows side-loading and i don't think any popular app out there is asking users to enable side-loading to install their app. Why do you think the situation would be any different with iOS app store?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#729

Post by hacknat » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

jonwinstanley wrote: post #17

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? How do you define a platform?

A game console and most peoples' primary computer is definitely an apple and oranges comparison. I don't know where the line is exactly but it's pretty clear where each of your examples lie.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#730

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

mbreese wrote: post #720

kaba0 wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the thing, there is no such phone. And frankly, there will not be more mobile platforms because even the current two is already much for companies to develop for. Free market doesn’t work that way. Linux phones might rise, but only if they gain a good android compat layer.

You can buy a PinePhone now (well, when they are back in stock). It's a decent phone with a completely open Linux stack. The UI might be a bit sluggish, but it is a fully functioning smartphone. If you want to see more apps targeting a third platform, then you should buy one of these phones. That's the way the market works.

I have one already.

But there is a network effect in play here, that pretty much disallows a new platform to emerge without compatibility. If I were to create the very best hardware with top notch OS on top, that is superior in every way to every android and ios phone out there, noone would buy it because phones are integral part of our lives with many areas of it requiring applications that are only available on these two platforms. Windows phone pretty much lost due to it — it was not worth the effort of companies to create a third port (even with the big funding Microsoft tried), and without a critical mass, it died off.