Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#661

Post by dwaite » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

CivBase wrote: post #293

dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

> My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different app stores each completely different then the other and a variety of privacy/security issues on each. Do you honestly think this is a worse scenario than having to buy all of your apps/games through Microsoft's app store? Can you imagine using macOS without homebrew because everything has to come from Apple's app store? Can you imagine using Ubuntu without…

> Can you imagine using macOS without homebrew because everything has to come from Apple's app store?

No, because I would have never used macOS if there were limitations that prevented me from being able to do my job. And imagining a world where Apple restricted macOS in such a way is a rather unlikely hypothetical.

The big difference is that iOS has _never_ had these capabilities. Many people have opted into the current model of iOS because they don't consider it a general purpose computing device - they consider it a phone, an iPod, an internet browser, or an angry birds player.

> Can you imagine using Ubuntu without apt because everything has to come from the Canonical's software center?

No, for the same reason. Their customer base would refuse to upgrade, servers would be migrated off, etc.

A closer equivalent there to the current game app stores would be always-on licensing servers which used physical dongles - the game stores are running basically as licensing servers. And professionals _hated_ these. Even software-based licensing servers over the LAN is much less common in professional software these days.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#662

Post by suifbwish » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

The thing is if I wanted or cared about that I would get one of those phones. The consumer gets to decide which phone they use and one of the reasons I like the iPhone is actually the difficulty in adding 3rd party crapware. If I needed a phone that I can install stuff on from unverified markets I would get an android and do it completely separately from my iPhone. I like that Apple is an appliance that is what it’s sold to be. Not everything needs to be the same

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#663

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #645

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same argument if Apple starts blocking websites?

>How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. Why do you care what my preferences are? If you don't care for the iOS model, you should go buy an Android. Apple doesn't have a monopoly. I prefer the Apple model because I want these restrictions. I want apps to be blocked from cross-app tracking. I want apps to have to explicitly spell…

I’m sorry but it an astonishingly stupid take.

Apple and android DO have a duopoly, and it is bad for every phone owner.

Also, allowing me to install whatever app I want with eg a hidden setting like enable developer mode will not hinder your walled garden at all. It won’t case the Apple Store to disappear, simply other alternatives will have a place.

And yes your last point: there is no good choice. So that’s your solution, to let it be bad for everyone?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#664

Post by Person5478 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #645

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same argument if Apple starts blocking websites?

>How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. Why do you care what my preferences are? If you don't care for the iOS model, you should go buy an Android. Apple doesn't have a monopoly. I prefer the Apple model because I want these restrictions. I want apps to be blocked from cross-app tracking. I want apps to have to explicitly spell…

I want both.

I would be completely happy if IOS by default did not allow all the things it doesn't allow, but you could add a setting to allow 3rd party app stores with a list that apple curated themselves (similar to search engine preferences in a browser).

Apple can make it all scary about how the apps on the 3rd party applications could be doing more nefarious things. I would even be ok with apple having the ability to simply refuse to install specific apps from these 3rd party app stores for things that are egregious violations of ethics.

but I've just read too many stories about Apple rejecting apps over very innocuous things, and apple rejecting smaller apps but allowing the same thing in larger apps (anti-competitive).

It's a legitimate problem.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#665

Post by suifbwish » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #14

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. On the other hand, Apple is acting as a platform owner and demanding that they continue to act as the sole store curator on their platform. I do not see the hypocrisy.

Is it really any different than being delisted from Google for political reasons?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#666

Post by kaba0 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

KillahBhyte wrote: post #259

FlownScepter wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick Google says iOS' market share is 14%. I don't understand this position at all. Google is by far and away the market leader. Their ecosystem is free and you can do just about anything in it. Their Play store's standards are utterly bare bones. The devices are cheaper. If what you want is an open source (ish) platform that you can hack on, modify, install software yourself, whatever, all of that is available to…

THIS! Say it a little louder for those in the back. I work in IT. I do not want to have a mini IT project in my pocket that I have to fiddle with. I want a device that is dependable above all else that I don't have to work on for my everyday driver. This is the same answer I provide every time someone at work ask my why I carry an Apple phone. To me the curation is part of the draw. I know that this phone will requir…

Why is it hard to understand that a goddamn hidden “enable side loading apps” button for those who want it will not cause any sort of regression in your use of the phone.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#667

Post by dkersten » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

> My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different app stores

I got around this by simply refusing to install any other stores. If its not on Steam, GoG or Playstation store, I'm simply not buying that game. There are so many games I've still not played and my time is limited, I can live without playing a game that forces me to install another "app store".

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#668

Post by munk-a » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

suifbwish wrote: post #662

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

The thing is if I wanted or cared about that I would get one of those phones. The consumer gets to decide which phone they use and one of the reasons I like the iPhone is actually the difficulty in adding 3rd party crapware. If I needed a phone that I can install stuff on from unverified markets I would get an android and do it completely separately from my iPhone. I like that Apple is an appliance that is what it’s…

I don't accept that - it's leaning into having too much faith in the free market that alternative options must emerge to suit the actual consumer desire. The issue is that we're dealing with an oligopoly where consumers have very little freedom of choice and refusing to use the iStore leaves you with precisely one option.

There is a common argument that having such a locked down store is what allowed the device to thrive but I don't believe that is usually made in good faith due to the easy counter example of Android being able to unseat the initial monopoly without using the same tactic and the fact that very little marketing or praise for the device has been specifically focused on the iStore being so locked down.

Consumer choice only really counts when there is an open field with healthy competition.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#669

Post by suifbwish » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

fouric wrote: post #508

nickysielicki wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not about the outcome, it’s about reasoning from first principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you dislike the outcome. Nobody has to buy an iPhone, iPad, or MacBook. Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem they want to create. Their success in mobile computing is arguably a direct result of their closed ecosystem.

> Apple has the right to create the software ecosystem they want to create. So say you. I say that consumers have the right to run whatever software they want on the hardware that they have purchased. Apple can create whatever software platform they want, but it seems pretty bad that they don't allow you to use whatever software platform you want on the hardware that you paid them for .

There is nothing stopping you from rooting your iPhone and installing android on it. Problem solved. Now you can add all the spammerware you like.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#670

Post by munk-a » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #645

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same argument if Apple starts blocking websites?

>How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. Why do you care what my preferences are? If you don't care for the iOS model, you should go buy an Android. Apple doesn't have a monopoly. I prefer the Apple model because I want these restrictions. I want apps to be blocked from cross-app tracking. I want apps to have to explicitly spell…

Back when Android had very strict permission controls I think this argument was quite valid since there was a market competitor without a locked down store but with a similar level of control. Control of the phone can't only be achieved by curating a store - it can also be achieved by allowing clear user controls and a phone without the locked down store but with the controls doesn't exist... So I can't go anywhere.