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Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

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Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say you should quit your job. Ride that train as long as you can. I'm saying you should manage yourself. If you only work half the day, spend the other half of the day: - Look for opportunities to contribute more at your job. Don't wait for a manager to tell you what to do. Rewrite some code. Propose a new feature. Improve the documentation. Write more tests. - Teach yourself new skills. Don't just skim book…

All very good points. However, if you do (1) (Look for opportunities at work), you don't have the time and energy for (2) and (3) with the regularity needed for making serious advances. At that point, you have a well-paid, non-stressful, truly full-time job. I would skip (1) and keep mostly (3) (well, that's what I do, more than advice. A pat on my shoulder, if you will). They are not paying you more, the more you do…

Yeah I didn't mean to suggest doing all 1, 2 and 3. Pick one. Do something for at least half of your idle time, and do it with purpose.

> when the tide turns, it is not that they are looking at some code review you did or improved documentation you wrote to keep you onboard.

I mostly disagree, but it depends on your employer. As a senior engineer, I very much have the opportunity to differentiate myself and protect my position longer than others. I lost my easy job to lower paid, lower skilled engineer because I chose not to put in the work which would have defined my role as a more difficult one. It was easy to replace me when the time came because I allowed the scope of my role to shrink to menial tasks which did not require much thought.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#682
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straight from the horse's mouth: >All of our growth at Waze post acquisition was from work we did, not support from the mothership. Looking back, we could have probably grown faster and much more efficiently had we stayed independent. He also details the constraints and additional burdens imposed by corporate as well the overall lack of support.

That doesn't support any claims of "putting them out to pasture". Is Microsoft "putting Github out to pasture" by taking a hands off approach and letting them keep doing their own thing?

It's not about the hands off approach or letting them do their own thing. It's about their long term goals. Microsoft wants GitHub to be successful while Google wanted Google Maps to succeed.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#683
post #643

I can certainly see a lot of parallels with Oculus / Facebook. Perhaps unusually, I actually wanted FB to impress itself more strongly on Oculus post acquisition because, frankly, Oculus was a bit of a mess. Instead, Oculus was given an enormous amount of freedom for many years. Personally, nobody ever told me what to do, even though I was willing to "shut up and soldier" if necessary -- they bought that capability!…

> people who Really Care about their work with the Just A Job crowd These aren't discrete categories. There are a lot of people who care about their work and also recognize that at the end of the day, it is a job, and the reality is that they can only play a role in shaping the outcome, not dictate it per their vision. Also, depending on the job, the team, the project, and the product, people can go from one of those…

Then consider it a spectrum with Really Care on one end and Just A Job on the other. I don't think it takes away from the original point.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#684
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if their work culture has anything to do with it! Thanks for the laugh.

Intelligent, skilled, and well-educated people don't want to spend their lives being treated like garbage so they seek out employment that provides an environment for a healthy balanced life. As a result of attracting this talent, these companies become and continue to be successful. It's not that hard to understand.

You're clearly not very intelligent if you can't conceive of people having a different attitude towards life than yours. Basically every big shot entrepreneur ever had opportunity to work at their equivalent of Google, and yet they didn't.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#685
post #643

I can certainly see a lot of parallels with Oculus / Facebook. Perhaps unusually, I actually wanted FB to impress itself more strongly on Oculus post acquisition because, frankly, Oculus was a bit of a mess. Instead, Oculus was given an enormous amount of freedom for many years. Personally, nobody ever told me what to do, even though I was willing to "shut up and soldier" if necessary -- they bought that capability!…

> people who Really Care about their work with the Just A Job crowd These aren't discrete categories. There are a lot of people who care about their work and also recognize that at the end of the day, it is a job, and the reality is that they can only play a role in shaping the outcome, not dictate it per their vision. Also, depending on the job, the team, the project, and the product, people can go from one of those…

I think the impedence mismatch may also be that among the Really Care group, there are those who think that people in the Just a Job crowd have a sort of moral responsibility to find a job where they Really Care.

That's, imo, an unreasonable requirement, but if you're super passionate about something, I can see why someone might see it.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#686
post #643

I can certainly see a lot of parallels with Oculus / Facebook. Perhaps unusually, I actually wanted FB to impress itself more strongly on Oculus post acquisition because, frankly, Oculus was a bit of a mess. Instead, Oculus was given an enormous amount of freedom for many years. Personally, nobody ever told me what to do, even though I was willing to "shut up and soldier" if necessary -- they bought that capability!…

> people who Really Care about their work with the Just A Job crowd These aren't discrete categories. There are a lot of people who care about their work and also recognize that at the end of the day, it is a job, and the reality is that they can only play a role in shaping the outcome, not dictate it per their vision. Also, depending on the job, the team, the project, and the product, people can go from one of those…

This sounds like a nuanced view, but I think you have missed the point - we're using terminology that allows for us to talk past each other and that's part of the problem.

At least in my experience, the Just A Job crowd are generally _very_ vocal about their view that this is Just A Job. Their worldview is not compatible with the worldview of people who Really Care. There is a very healthy middle ground of people who (in NON CAPITAL LETTERS) both really care and for whom this is just a job, but they don't _identify_ with those as their primary worldview.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like we're at an impasse. To me, it sounds like people wanted to "hold him accountable" for upsetting them. You clearly think otherwise. And I don't know, but the article makes me believe he is not out to attack people. Some people have also pointed out cultural differences that are likely at play here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26168899 . Again, you clearly think differently given one of your oth…

> To me, it sounds like people wanted to "hold him accountable" for upsetting them. You clearly think otherwise No this is exactly what I think. I think it is valid for people to air the grievances. I think the difference here is that you are skeptical of the validity if their complaints. If I am right, this is a pretty fundamental difference in world view that I doubt can be reconciled on a HN thread at this point u…

Yes, that's what I meant and I agree it's probably not going to be reconciled in a HN thread.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#688
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See: https://stratechery.com/2018/the-end-of-windows/ I think that article gets most of it. There's some MSFT narrative that comes up here a lot where people say Ballmer was doing great and Nadella just continued his plans, I don't buy it. MSFT had a lot of strategic failures as well as product failures under Ballmer. Nadella shifted strategy and made them a serious competitor again.

"made them a serious competitor again?" They were making money hand over fist, massive growth in revenues almost ever year under Ballmer. [1] Which part of that massive money train is 'not serious competitor'? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/267805/microsofts-global...

Some of the best quarters for Nokia & co were just before they went under so that's not a solid reference point, unfortunately.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#689
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligent, skilled, and well-educated people don't want to spend their lives being treated like garbage so they seek out employment that provides an environment for a healthy balanced life. As a result of attracting this talent, these companies become and continue to be successful. It's not that hard to understand.

You're clearly not very intelligent if you can't conceive of people having a different attitude towards life than yours. Basically every big shot entrepreneur ever had opportunity to work at their equivalent of Google, and yet they didn't.

Entrepreneurs set their own hours based on their desired lifestyle, are their own bosses, and have the majority stake in their work. They are not at the mercy of anyone but themselves. I would say that falls under "employment that provides an environment for a healthy balanced life".

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit unfair. He's clearly passionate about the product and its customers. The ask to sacrifice for your customers is a reasonable position to take, especially in weird one of situations. It also ties into his risk/reward compensation section. I didn't get any indications that he expected 80 hour work weeks 52 weeks a year from everyone. To paraphrase, I think he was frustrated with his employees going to the…

A charitable explanation is that he would like to motivate his workers by equity... but in the company as big as Google, equity doesn't work that way anymore, and there is no good substitute.

Motivating by equity in startups is extremely misleading most of the time. You give people paper money that are extremely unlikely to have any value, even if startup has successful exit due to liquidation preferences (excluding really one of cases, of most the time good IPOs).
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