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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes you can use another publisher app store. Which will in fact start another app store upon starting the game. Not saying this doesn't ever happen, but I've used Steam for more than a decade now and not once have I seen that happen, ever. Yes, some games have separate launchers, and yes, sometimes these have support for their own separate accounts and mod loaders and such, but not once have they actually bee…

Practically every game from EA or Ubisoft on Steam published within the last eight years or so does this.

And they do so because people support it.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entity that makes Game A has a choice where the app is sold. So, for Example, EA sells games on Origin but also Steam. There are lots of apps that are in many stores. On an iOS device, the entity that makes the app has no choice of what store to be in, they must be in Apple's. That is a monopoly. As many have pointed out, if you only want to get your apps from one store-- like Apple's-- you could chose that. But…

Right, it's a monopoly for app developers, much more than for users.

Users have even less choice then developers.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entity that makes Game A has a choice where the app is sold. So, for Example, EA sells games on Origin but also Steam. There are lots of apps that are in many stores. On an iOS device, the entity that makes the app has no choice of what store to be in, they must be in Apple's. That is a monopoly. As many have pointed out, if you only want to get your apps from one store-- like Apple's-- you could chose that. But…

Well, everything is a monopoly if you define the market specifically enough.

You can abuse your market position without being a monopoly.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App store are good, not argument. The inability of side loading beside the store is what is being critisized.

That's literally a major reason why people buy Apple products, though. If you can't sideload things, there's literally no chance of your phone being compromised by those things.

> That's literally a major reason why people buy Apple products, though. If you can't sideload things, there's literally no chance of your phone being compromised by those things.

False. People who don't want to take risk simply don't sideload, most people don't know how to anyways even on android - having the /option/ to do so is not a negative.

Android allows is and there's nearly no malware https://duo.com/decipher/google-data-shows-tiny-fraction-of-...

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Nobody is arguing that Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone market. The problem is that Apple built an artificial monopoly in the distribution of apps by making the App Store the only curator of the platform. People who decided to purchase an iPhone with an iOS license should have the right to use the device to it's full extent (along with being able to fix it themselves if something break…

That's like saying Nintendo has an artificial monopoly by allowing only allowing Nintendo approved games to be distributed for sales on their consoles. Or TV channels have an artificial monopoly for shows they buy the syndication/distribution rights for. At some point, someone decided to commit to a certain path. Calling the choice "anti-competitive" cheapens the word. >>People who decided to purchase an iPhone with…

You're right that I'd classify those as artificial monopolies. Wouldn't you agree that the world would be a better place if we had less of them?

Especially for general computing devices like a phone (unlike gaming consoles and media like your examples). We already know that Apple doesn't need the App Store for iDevices to be a commercial success, just look at the Mac and macOS.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#636
post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than the solution we have today. Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. But that's not happening. You, and many others in this thread, are blaming…

The best developers are selfless and put the interests of users first. Those "insane rules" are an example of that.

Which developers are those, exactly? I'd like examples.

Is Apple one of them? The company which disobeys its own App Store rules in the usage of push messages for marking AppleCare, Apple Music, Apple TV+, Apple Fitness, and Apple Arcade? The company which goes beyond this and into marketing these services within the literal Settings app of iOS, an avenue that no other developer has access to?

Is Apple putting the interests of their users "first" by restricting the distribution of cloud game streaming applications without being able to review the individual games within the service? How so? It doesn't put my interests first, and I'm an Apple user!

So, oof, ok, they're putting the interests of the nebulous, general, undefinable "prototypical user" first; not me, naturally, not millions of other users, but some unknown user out there. Though, by serving the interests of this unknown prototypical user, they're actively hurting my interests!

Is Apple putting the interests of users "first" by forcing a 30% tax onto any transaction made in the store? I mean, if one analyzes it with all the critical thinking of a seventh grader, sure. They're protecting their users! From the evil, icky "other" credit card processors like, uh, Visa! and Stripe! Those guys will steal your data... or, uh, I guess they wouldn't, actually they're fine, but then apps could use whatever processors they wanted, including ones which steal your data! I mean, lets ignore that Apple could require developers to use one of a set number of approved safe processors, because jeeze, that would destroy the whole argument, wouldn't want that.

Oh, right, I forgot, Apple is being Fair! They don't want to give special treatment to other payment networks, because then they'd have to pick which ones are safe and show favoritism. There we go, an Unassailable stance. Wait, but... Apple only enforces the IAP Framework requirement for Digital purchases... plenty of apps use whatever payment processor they want, including bad ones, as long as its for Physical goods. Weird... and didn't Apple give Amazon special treatment with Prime Video, for Digital goods, allowing them to bypass the IAP Framework? That's right, they did do that...

Jeeze, this is looking pretty bad for Apple. I mean, they're the ones making the rules, and they can't even operate in a position where the Nebulous and Undefinable Interests of Unknown and Uncountable Users is put "first". What hope does anyone else have?

Except, maybe, just maybe, their hope lies in not treating users like babies who need a nanny to make rules in the first place. I know, its crazy, but hear me out: there was that one time I was drinking from my bottle and the nipple fell off and I split milk everywhere, it was such a mess, my mommy was so mad! But, I'm still here. Growing. Learning. Making dumb, shitty comments on the internet. Capable of (most of the time) acting like an adult and making my own decisions. I'm capable of deciding for myself whether something is Safe, whether I want to take the risk, and hedging myself and my interests when those risks turn sour. Every human is. We can't operate in a nursery for our entire lives and expect to grow as people, or even as a species.

There is so much more that iPhones, and mobile computing in general, are capable of; so lets go do it, and lets not pay Apple 30% and deal with their App Review Team in the process. Because I already paid them fair and square for the phone. That should be enough.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it’s about reasoning from first principles and going where ever that leads you, regardless of how much you dislike the outcome" This sounds an awfull lot like the though process of religious zealots and extremists. Ignore the real world, consequences be damned, ideology comes first. There is no way we could make an error of judgement. Thats how you get a famine and 50 million dead in China. "Apple has the right to c…

The right to one's own work, to one's own mind outcome is arguably the only real right we can even pretend to have. What there is none is the "right" for governments to claim ownership to other's work and dictate you must do what your own free will tells you is not on your best interest, that is why they use force.

That is a clearly a semantic simplification. All rights are conditional, the "right to one's own work" is conditional on the "right of others work not to impede on one's own work". From this alone you can see the contradiction and realise that rights are a compromise of different interests. From there we're just arguing about who can wield what force to enforce what rights. Perhaps it's not in my best interest not to be the sole source of force in the world but it's certainly in others.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#638

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

Say you had the choice between: 1. Buy game X from Apple's app store for $39.00. 2. Buy game X from X's own app store for $30.00. Would you install X's app store then? Would you at least want the option of choosing that path?

It won't be an option.

It will be install Epic store if you want Epic games.

Install uPlay if you want Ubisoft games.

And so on. Oh, and none of those will provide information about tracking and privacy breaches, because that's part of the business model.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As iOS user I completely disagree. I love the Apple platform for the simplicity. Every time there is a payment I choose Apple Pay as it's more secure than giving my card away. It uses biometrics, not some static digits stuck with card if you lose it. It's also more or less valid for Google Pay as well. Having the option to use PayPal, Stripe, some other payment processor increases the stress on the UX and also the at…

Apple Pay is separate from In App Purchases and the app store is not needed for its security features you seem to like. Ironically, a payment processor like Stripe is usually the thing facilitating Apple Pay support on the backend.

My bad I didn’t express myself completely. I enjoy the fact that I have one account and I know EXACTLY when I’m making a payment.

When I get presented with the price and checkout in an in-app purchase I’m sure that’s everything I’m paying, there are no hidden fees, it’s secure and there is no way for someone to steal my details. And it’s the same flow to make the payment: double tap the side button and scan my face. This is the parallel with Apple Pay. Plus I think the backend on in-app and in-store payments are the same so it would be ApplePay.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#640
post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, everything is a monopoly if you define the market specifically enough.

You can abuse your market position without being a monopoly.

Of course you can. But the parent comment doesn’t put forward any argument for why they think that’s happening. They’re just saying Apple has a monopoly over Apple customers. Which is more of a truism rather than anything insightful.
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