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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#551

Post by Terretta »

onion2k wrote: post #209
dubcanada wrote: post #184

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the lates…

I hate the fact I have to use Apple TV to watch Servant, Disney+ to watch The Mandalorian, Netflix to watch Stranger Things, and Amazon Prime Video to watch The Boys, and HBO to watch Game of Thrones, and so on. I'd much rather all of those other companies gave Apple a 30% cut of their revenue.

While I 100% agree with the sentiment, I’m not fully following these examples. On my Apple TV device, when using the TV app, TV consolidates all those except Netflix into an overall Up Next. I can watch next episodes directly, from Disney+, Prime, Hulu, AMC+, Apple TV+, even AT&T, without leaving the “TV” app.

Additionally, not just up next, but based on my subscription patterns, content from CBS, Showtime, Starz, AMC+, Epix, HBO, Cinemax, Sundance, Acorn, BritBox, IFC Films, and MUBI, as well as Apple’s TV+ channel, are all browsable without leaving the consolidated TV UI, and do not need an app installed at all.

From your list, Hulu, Disney+, Netflix, and Prime all do need apps installed. I do have to go into these to discover their own algorithmically proposed (personalized) thumbnails. But for day to day watching, the only app needed for each brand you happened to mention (except Netflix) is the TV app, and when searching for a show, shows from all of these (except Netflix) are in the search results.

Unfortunately, there are apps that work on Apple TV that do not play nice with the consolidated view and watch-roll. Some that were well integrated, backed off, most likely having to do with the waterline on viewer measurement / analytics data.

Netflix is the prime offender here. It wasn’t integrated, then it was, then it wasn’t again. They seem to have landed on a (for them) happy medium, where if you have Netflix in your home (top) row of icons on Apple TV’s home screen, “mousing over” (aka selecting w/ remote) the Netflix icon does show you your Continue Watching and Trending Now options, so you can go directly to those without opening the Netflix app itself. But they no longer show up in even the search interface, which probably keeps me subscribing to and watching other sources more than I need to.

To help give a signal to media owners, and to Apple, I systematically un-subscribed through individual apps and subscribed through the fully integrated “Channels” as those channels appeared. This individual statement is lost in statistical noise, sure. But what you describe is clearly better for the home user, and if enough folks do it, they’ll catch on.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#552

Post by AmericanChopper »

georgeecollins wrote: post #298
BrianGragg wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the choice is taken away from you though. Just like he said with the game market. If you want to play Game A, you go and download/install Game A's publishing app store. If you want to then play Game B, rinse and repeat. You will be forced to use so many different app stores and won't have a choice to NOT use their app store "IF" it progresses like it has on the desktop. No proof it will/won't either.

The entity that makes Game A has a choice where the app is sold. So, for Example, EA sells games on Origin but also Steam. There are lots of apps that are in many stores. On an iOS device, the entity that makes the app has no choice of what store to be in, they must be in Apple's. That is a monopoly. As many have pointed out, if you only want to get your apps from one store-- like Apple's-- you could chose that. But…

Well, everything is a monopoly if you define the market specifically enough.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#553

Post by katbyte »

colinmhayes wrote: post #525
jvzr wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is how life is as a PC gamer and it's.... actually good. Who cares if you need to open multiple stores? I do. I hate it with passion. Launchers have to be updated, games have to be updated; they all have different UX, work better or worse than the other. Let me have just Steam and regulate Valve so that they don't abuse their position, and I'll be fine thank you.

Imagine hating something so trivial that provides real tangible benefits so much.

it's not trivial? its multiple accounts and multiple things to install and juggle - not everyone has the latest and greatest computer. Not to mention are you 100% sure those stores and your purchases will continue to exist longer than steam ect?

regardless, I hate it too but i really don't care, companies like EA and epic can do whatever they want and i just don't install or play games not on steam or the ps4 stores and move on with my life.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#554

Post by heavyset_go »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #477
joshuaissac wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Play Store's revenue is half of that of the Apple App Store, so choosing only Android instead of both platforms would cut the expected app revenue by about two-thirds. Google also has similar app tax policies to Apple (and there is an ongoing lawsuit by Epic against them), so they really are relegated to the more obscure app stores.

That's because Apple's app store has better quality apps due to curation. The minute iPhones are opened up, the value of the App Store will tank considerably, and many devs on here will be up in arms, complaining about all the flood of free apps that have destroyed their market. The fact is the App Store helps everyone. It curates apps for most people, it helps developers make more money (as you said, double the reve…

> That's because Apple's app store has better quality apps due to curation.

Is that why I found a dozen Chinese knockoff BonziBuddy[1] clones on Apple's App Store?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BonziBuddy

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#555

Post by parasubvert »

015a wrote: post #497
BrianGragg wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the choice is taken away from you though. Just like he said with the game market. If you want to play Game A, you go and download/install Game A's publishing app store. If you want to then play Game B, rinse and repeat. You will be forced to use so many different app stores and won't have a choice to NOT use their app store "IF" it progresses like it has on the desktop. No proof it will/won't either.

As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than the solution we have today. Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. But that's not happening. You, and many others in this thread, are blaming…

All of WHAT is Apple’s fault? Providing a service that consumers want to use and preventing other companies from ruining it?

Telling consumers they should be mad at Apple is absurd. I am not mad at Apple, I am mad at Epic for wasting everyone’s time with this case that they know they will lose, purely to shape public opinion. The judge so far seems to be projecting this is what will happen. I also don’t like relying on regulators to force changes in a market they know little about. Interfering with a successful model that consumers LIKE and WANT into something else does not benefit consumers.

Benefiting other developers is completely irrelevant to the point of antitrust. That’s just corporate welfare.

Apple would be best to lower their rate a bit, clarify certain inconsistent rules, and not abuse the review process, but otherwise I do not want multiple App stores and prefer Apple to regulate their store over the government. I guarantee you there are far more consumers that share this opinion than not. We really could care less what developers are whining about Apple’s policies or retail cut. If you can’t build for iOS at a profit, find something else to do.

The government isn’t going to force a change of the iOS UX, that’s a pipe dream localized to Hacker News and Epic’s board room. Apple isn’t a monopoly by any definition of the term. You could declare them a utility, but that won’t have the effect you expect.

To believe that iOS, a platform with 15% market share, somehow represents the end of platform history that needs government intervention, is the height of lazy thinking. Build a better ecosystem. Apple did it barely 14 years ago when they were a fraction of Microsoft’s size, and everyone said it was impossible.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#556

Post by chc »

JakeTheAndroid wrote: post #547
chc wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that nobody has to buy an iPhone, in that they can choose any of the one competing platform. "There's literally a single competitor" isn't a very strong argument against regulation, though.

I don't know that it's entirely fair to say there is literally a single competitor. While Android is a single platform, you're free to get it from a range of vendors that all add their own flavor to Android. Some are really locked down, some are root by default. So you actually have a range of competing platforms even if they are powered by only 2 OSes. And in the case of both devices (Apple and Android) you can stil…

This argument doesn't pass the "Would it work just as well as a defense of late-'90s Microsoft?" test. I would be willing to concede most of the facts you brought up, but none of that in any way mitigates the amount of control Apple holds. Nobody's saying it's Apple's fault that they're in a duopoly position in the phone space, but that doesn't absolve them of the responsibility that position holds either. What is Apple's fault is that they're using their position in one market to force out potential competitors in other markets (e.g. in-app payments, and app distribution in general).

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#557

Post by threeseed »

015a wrote: post #497
BrianGragg wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is the choice is taken away from you though. Just like he said with the game market. If you want to play Game A, you go and download/install Game A's publishing app store. If you want to then play Game B, rinse and repeat. You will be forced to use so many different app stores and won't have a choice to NOT use their app store "IF" it progresses like it has on the desktop. No proof it will/won't either.

As opposed to Developers not having the choice to distribute their own app stores? There is no solution to this problem that benefits everyone perfectly. There are only solutions which are better than the solution we have today. Actually, there is one near-perfect solution; Apple reduces their cut to ~5% and stops enforcing their insane rules. But that's not happening. You, and many others in this thread, are blaming…

The best developers are selfless and put the interests of users first.

Those "insane rules" are an example of that.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#558

Post by AttakBanana »

katbyte wrote: post #549
AttakBanana wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, the harm is 30% more expensive apps. If devs can't avoid the cut, its only going to get passed down to the user.

how is it 30% more expensive apps when the play store, ps4 store, xbox store all take the same amount?

Because all of them take a 30% cut (*some exceptions to certain apps apply)

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/10/07/report-steams-30-cut...

What I mean is, if Apple's cut was lesser / we had different app stores, prices could potentially be up to 30% lesser.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#559

Post by yladiz »

colinmhayes wrote: post #529
jaegerpicker wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pointless statement, does Epic have consumers back? LOL hardly. This lawsuit is about Epic cashing in on Apple's work. No one believes Apple the corp is the defender of the people. Apple is great on privacy compared to all the other options, not because they are good people (they may not be or they may be who knows?) but because it's in their best interest to be. This is about two corp's fighting over their…

It doesn't matter what Epic's intentions are. Allowing creation of 3rd party stores is great and consumers and developers. I'll continue to support the organization whose incentives are aligned with mine.

I get why it's great for developers, but why for consumers? You'll almost have a situation exactly like the one that exists on Windows for gaming, where you have to install any number of stores to get the games that _only_ exist in those stores. You may think that it will give you or other consumers more choice, but it's a choice only for developers and it's at the expense of consumers.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#560

Post by threeseed »

bombela wrote: post #498
tomc1985 wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When things work that way, then great! But a number of high-profile publishers (Rockstar, Ubisoft, EA) force you to use their app platform even if you purchased the game on Steam. I bought Far Cry 5 on Steam, and running it first launches Ubisoft's launcher, which usually needs to update (why????), then I can launch the game. GTA Online freebie in Epic Store, first has to start Rockstar Social Club (which also usuall…

At this point I barely play anymore. Because with all the intermediate updates and transient failures, it takes longer to start the game than the time you would spend casually playing during a week evening.

Exactly why people buy consoles.

For the same experience as you get with an iPhone.

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