Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#181

Post by the_duke » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

mfontani wrote: post #163

the_duke wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't the case on Android. I'd argue that it is till the case on Android. Yes, alternate stores are possible, but they are severely handicapped. First, manual APK install has to be enabled in obscure settings that come with a "scary" warning. Then they can't provide auto-updates but require a manual confirmation for each version update. Epic gave up on running their own store on Android due to the difficulties…

IIRC the (proposed? is it in place yet?) EU cap is 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards.

I checked and you are right, it's 0.3% for CC, 0.2 for debit.

But yes, the regulation came into effect partially in 2015 and fully in 2016.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...

It's quite noticeable: all the CC related reward programs have disappeared.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#182

Post by enragedcacti » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #112

detaro wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither the article nor any of the comments you reply to use the word you quote.

I know, Epic is trying to dodge its use in an vain attempt to actually have a case.

You seem to really know a lot about EU laws and regulations, where did you get your law degree?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#183

Post by ginko » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

kempbellt wrote: post #156

ginko wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New iOS "app store" starts up, but only charges 0.1%. This is possible because they don't write the OS or any of the infrastructure; they're a simple indexer Apple was already paid handsomely for OS development through the device's purchase price. > Apple's revenue drops precipitously Apple has some of the highest margins in the industry. They'll survive. > In order to maintain the OS, Apple either a) raises the pr…

"Apple has lots of money so they can afford to give some of it away because we want them to" is not an argument that Epic can take to court, and it isn't a great argument to support adding app stores. As an iPhone user I prefer the single app store approach. Multiple app stores fragments the user experience, ultimately harming the experience of owning an iPhone. Especially when apps become exclusives to different sto…

You're conflating having a single app store with having a consistent user experience. Mac OS didn't have an app store for most of its existence and it's doing fine. Android is particularly bad in that regard, not just because of the ability to side-load alternative apps and app stores. The main issue is that OEMs heavily modify the OS for their devices, something that isn't an issue with Apple's business model.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#184

Post by dubcanada » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

I can hardly wait to use Amazon App Store to install Amazon and then open up the Epic Game Store to install random game and then open up EA Game Store to install random game and then open up Facebook App Store to install Facebook and then open up the Apple App Store to install the Blizzard App Store to install Hearthstone and then go back to the Apple App Store and update the Blizzard App Store so I can get the latest Hearthstone updates.

Going to be super fun!

My gaming computer is already filled with like 8 different app stores each completely different then the other and a variety of privacy/security issues on each. All of them need their App Store running in order to play their games, so half the time my computer has 4-5 App Stores running in the background so I can play a single game. And they are all electron/qt webkit apps cause nobody builds apps anymore so each one consumes about 500mb of ram.

And each App Store also has their own chat system along with the others like discord.

I don't agree that Apple should have a complete monopoly, but the alternative is not better. And while Android does have the main Google Play Store, and there isn't to many "alternative" App Stores at the moment. Just give it time, the same thing that is happening to TV Streaming/Game App Stores will happen on Android.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#185

Post by ahiknsr » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #55

aboringusername wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for Epic) no way Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for FB) yes way So Apple is allowed to get its own way, 100% of the time, no questions asked, what they want is what they get end of (by virtue of holding all the cards and owning the platform they dictate the rules on) How about no? You can play by your rules in your sandbox, but Epic has a right t…

> Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for Epic) no way Epic demands Apple do a thing = bad for Apple, bad for customers (good for Epic) > Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for FB) yes way Apple demands Facebook do a thing = Good for Apple, good for customers (bad for Facebook) As a customer in these equations, I'm siding with Apple. > That's the very definition of "competition" someth…

>Epic demands Apple do a thing = bad for Apple, bad for customers (good for Epic)

not bad for all customers. I would like to side-load third party apps on my Iphone. Remember when app store banned a hn reader app because it showed Covid-related submissions[1]

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24410652

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#186

Post by kergonath » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #128

covercash wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have that right, it’s called Android.

You only have that right in advance, though. If I get an iPhone and buy a bunch of software on it and then 3 years later Apple Changes The Terms Of Our Relationship, I don't have any ability to migrate my data (let alone my purchases) to another platform. Not only do I have to buy a new smartphone, I have to re-buy my apps even if those apps are available on Android. Even if the app's developer wants to give me the a…

This is a problem with any store, though, except for some very specific situations. You won’t solve that problem by having more isolated islands. I agree that this should be improved, I have no illusion that Facebook and Epic have any intention of doing that.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#187

Post by metiscus » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #28

DiabloD3 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, Apple has gotten far more whacks for violating EU law than anyone else in this space. Not only that, winning a case against a company in EU over antitrust often bolsters your defense in the US due to courts preferring to hear about established case law by other courts with similar laws.

> Even so, Apple has gotten far more whacks for violating EU law than anyone else in this space. What are you referring to here? Antitrust? If so, please provide some pointers. There're a lot of cases, not aware of many wins.

Note that I am not asserting that Apple has more than anyone else, that would require more research than this. What I have found in recent history is one major case from France:

Apple fined 1.23 Billion for Price-Fixing in France https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/16/apple-fined-record-1-23-b...

Apple also has 4 open Antitrust investigations (all opened on the same date and likely interrelated) going on in the EU (irrespective of actions that members may be taking):

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/case_details.c...

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#188

Post by zepto » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #31

gwd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is room for 3rd party app stores. The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but resents having to help pay to support it. Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which case Apple will be forced to turn to…

> Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of apple, there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, we do not know the true cost of maintaining this platform…

> nobody is forcing you to use the third party app store if it does exist. If you continued to use apple's curated store, you will continue to get the existing benefits. Adding an extra option can't possibly hurt you

People need to stop saying this - it’s obvious completely false.

As soon as other app stores are involved, there will be paid exclusives. Equivalent to Joe Rogan on Spotify, or any of the streaming video services who commission studios to make content just for their platform.

It will definitely be impossible to avoid using multiple stores if you want access to the popular apps.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#189

Post by leothecool » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #147

kevingadd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past US regulators have not agreed with your reasoning here. They broke up the original big telephone companies, for example.

Those had an actual monopoly - literally no alternative service provider.

Not true. MCI predates the break-up of ma bell.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#190

Post by Wowfunhappy » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #150

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say a video rental is a new purchase. The customer may already be subscribed to Amazon Prime, but they're paying additional money to watch that specific video.

Video rentals are already covered by an agreement that existed prior to the change in the Amazon app. The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other video services were already using this which is an option where you can allow purchases tied to an existing subscription payment method if you also allow for those purchases in the iTunes Store and integration into the Apple TV app.

> The article you posted even mentions that Canal+ and other video services were already using this

So why isn't Youtube allowed to use this for their video rentals, if the user has a credit card on file in their Google account? Why did Apple only offer it to a tiny number of companies, and only one major player?