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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#171

Post by throw_away892 »

the_duke wrote: post #102
aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

> This isn't the case on Android. I'd argue that it is till the case on Android. Yes, alternate stores are possible, but they are severely handicapped. First, manual APK install has to be enabled in obscure settings that come with a "scary" warning. Then they can't provide auto-updates but require a manual confirmation for each version update. Epic gave up on running their own store on Android due to the difficulties…

> First, manual APK install has to be enabled in obscure settings that come with a "scary" warning.

Don't see how this is necessarily a bad thing. It's a general security notification.

> Then they can't provide auto-updates but require a manual confirmation for each version update.

Again, how is this a deterrent? How many times a day do you have to accept the new changes?

We've already established that the official store will always be designed to provide the best experience ootb compared to the 'installed' one.

This is true for all the other platforms where you need manual intervention to install/maintain apps "unofficially".

> Epic gave up on running their own store on Android due to the difficulties.

This is a hard stretch

> I do think that regulators need to force Apples hand - not being in control of your own device is not acceptable.

?? You'd be a fool to think Apple would give an equal footing to other competing stores in their own garden

> But even then most business would remain on the official stores.

Simple. Open it up and let the market decide this one out.

> We also need legislation to curb the excessive fees charged by both Google and Apple.

On this one I agree. Though it's a different for Apple which does not allow any other payment solutions other than themselves, unlike Google's store. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

The Apple store monopoly should be broken up. It's time.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#172

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

kevingadd wrote: post #132
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then if you care so much about running whatever software you want on it, perhaps you should have bought a phone that lets you do that instead? I'm not personally in favor of walled gardens myself, but everyone who bought an iPhone knew that's what they were getting and did it anyway.

"everyone who bought an iPhone knew that's what they were getting and did it anyway" is an incredibly strong assertion you're not making an effort to support here. Are you seriously claiming that every owner of an iPhone understood the nuances of Apple's app store policies before they bought the phone?

Everyone in the world? No, clearly, but I doubt very many of them care about being able to use other stores on their phone anyway. The people here making the argument for forcing Apple's hand? Yes.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#173

Post by mhh__ »

dpkonofa wrote: post #125
mhh__ wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if Apple suddenly lost all of it's money Well no-one would be using it so I wouldn't care all that much - Apple losing all their money would basically require giving away iPhones for free with 0 revenue given apples financials.

So then your argument is just anti-Apple and not actually based on any principles...

No I'm pointing out that your hypothetical is so far into the tails that it's pointless to consider specifically.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#174

Post by paulgb »

isodev wrote: post #153
aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing. The iPhone is not a computer platform, it's an integrated experience. Raspberry Pi or the PC you assemble is a platform (which you can still choose to do, if you want).

That’s one way of looking at it, but I think the reason the issue keeps coming up on HN is that it feels like a serious regression that we’ve ended up in a world where one of the most ubiquitous platforms is a walled garden. Even in the days of Windows dominance, that wasn’t a problem.

The transition happened so gradually that we ended up here without a lot of discussion, which is why the discussion is happening now.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#175

Post by Wowfunhappy »

dpkonofa wrote: post #137
mhh__ wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you don't have to pay Linus Torvalds money to run a program on a Linux installation - that should be the standard.

What does that have to do with anything? You never said anything about paying money. I don't have to pay anything to run Mint or Mario Run on my phone so what's your point?

You have to pay Apple a minimum of $100 a year to install apps on an iPhone, unless you're okay with the apps being automatically disabled every seven days and never need to install more than three custom apps at a time.

You didn't realize this when you bought Mario Run, because Nintendo paid Apple for you.

And if Nintendo tries to sell you something to recuperate that cost, they have to give Apple 30%.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#176

Post by kergonath »

AYBABTME wrote: post #57
aboringusername wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for Epic) no way Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for FB) yes way So Apple is allowed to get its own way, 100% of the time, no questions asked, what they want is what they get end of (by virtue of holding all the cards and owning the platform they dictate the rules on) How about no? You can play by your rules in your sandbox, but Epic has a right t…

What if consumers like it like that: one sandbox curated by Apple?

What I am very afraid of is a situation in which every developer pushes its own App Store with dodgy security and privacy.

“Oh, you want Photoshop? Just add the Adobe store (don’t look at permissions, also please give us your debit card number, we promise it’ll be safe)”.

“Oh, you want that nifty game? Just install our store. And also give us your bank account.”

“Yes, Apple is draconian. So to get the Facebook app, you must give us complete access to your phone and all data you send. Sign with your blood here.”

From an opsec perspective, Apple’s store associated with a prepaid debit card is great. They are far from ideal, but they have amongst the best privacy practices in the industry, have great customer support, and their interests align with mine better than those of their competitors.

We know that the second third party stores are allowed, some developer will force them on us.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#177

Post by zepto »

cryptonym wrote: post #109
dleslie wrote: post #32

I'm not excited by the proposition of either party coming out on top. I hope the EU sees the forest for the trees and understands that the situation is a lot more complicated than either party would claim. Apple is acting as a leader in reducing the footprint of general computing hardware; albeit their devices have among the longest service lives, they continue to be further restricted in their operation over time. T…

> So I kind of hope that the EU allows third party stores, but allows Apple to place curation constraints on the sort of purchases that are available to users. If we follow the logic of Phones providing access to a market that must remain "free" and allow competition, then constraints on purchase might be something decided by society/people/governments more than a single private company?

> then constraints on purchase might be something decided by society/people/governments more than a single private company?

This is the worst possible (and likely) outcome.

Stores lose the right to determine what goes in them, but an expensive government scheme replaces that.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#178

Post by Shivetya »

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

The open your platform line looks so good but we just went through a number of stories about how people are being suckered into high cost apps only after initial download and such.

so if platforms are going to be forced open, we should go after game consoles too, then there needs to be some means to protect consumers from predatory apps because we are just opening the door to that and more.

finally, it also means that apps you don't like will now be easily available so best be good with that and not asking government to judge every app.

finally this means apps can do what they will unless we are willing to let platforms still restrict how they use your data.. which to be honest blocking 3rd party apps is at times beneficial

as in, you can have it all but everyone gets to as well.

So what will you give up for the freedom? Do you want the platform owner to still police for privacy issues? I don't see how it can be done if they cannot control access.

Frankly let all apps stores be forced open and it will be fun to watch how fast many demand them locked up or heavily regulated or worse

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#179

Post by darkwizard42 »

Qahlel wrote: post #155
fhood wrote: post #139

Apple does not actually have a monopoly, Android exists, has more market share, more options and features, and a better ecosystem of compatible smart devices. If Apple is forced to allow third party app marketplaces it is clear what will happen. Every major player will make their own marketplace and force you to use it to access their software and whatever other software they have paid to make exclusive. Epic is one…

> Apple does not actually have a monopoly This is like saying water is not an essential liquid, there is coca cola and pepsi.

Apple products are not at the level of necessity as water...

A smartphone might be (big stretch)... of which there are plenty of choices.

This is like saying Dasani (Apple) is the absolutely ONLY water brand out there, when you can get Aquafina (Android) and get nearly the same product. Yes, Dasani is only bottled at certain places (exclusive features like iMessage, FaceTime), but Aquafina has minerality (rooting your phone, deep integration with Google services) as well that make it unique.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#180

Post by toiletfuneral »

Qahlel wrote: post #155
fhood wrote: post #139

Apple does not actually have a monopoly, Android exists, has more market share, more options and features, and a better ecosystem of compatible smart devices. If Apple is forced to allow third party app marketplaces it is clear what will happen. Every major player will make their own marketplace and force you to use it to access their software and whatever other software they have paid to make exclusive. Epic is one…

> Apple does not actually have a monopoly This is like saying water is not an essential liquid, there is coca cola and pepsi.

I don't understand this analogy at all, can you explain?
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