Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#31

Post by chii » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #18

ehvatum wrote: post #4

There is room for 3rd party app stores. Epic will argue that Apple does an absolutely ghastly terrible job of curating the Apple app store, as Apple really has little incentive not to suck completely. The EU court will agree. Apple will spend a year or two saying “it can’t be done”, then issue a signing certificate to Epic.

> There is room for 3rd party app stores. The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but resents having to help pay to support it. Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which case Apple will be forced to turn to…

> Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way

how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of apple, there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, we do not know the true cost of maintaining this platform - only that apple is able to maintain it with at least 30%.

> Don't take that choice away from me.

nobody is forcing you to use the third party app store if it does exist. If you continued to use apple's curated store, you will continue to get the existing benefits. Adding an extra option can't possibly hurt you.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#32

Post by dleslie » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

I'm not excited by the proposition of either party coming out on top. I hope the EU sees the forest for the trees and understands that the situation is a lot more complicated than either party would claim.

Apple is acting as a leader in reducing the footprint of general computing hardware; albeit their devices have among the longest service lives, they continue to be further restricted in their operation over time. There is a danger here with the population switching en masse from using PCs to using Phones as their primary computing devices. Forcing it to allow third party marketplaces might be a start in reversing that trend.

Epic is a leader in the development of anxiety-driven consumer software. Fortnite's primary capital isn't the player's competitive standing, it's the uniqueness of their cosmetic gear. They target the most vulnerable and maleable markets, tweens and children, and ply them with social anxiety; one of the most insidious and emotionally distressing devices for that age group. See also, yesterday's lengthy discussion. [0]

So I kind of hope that the EU allows third party stores, but allows Apple to place curation constraints on the sort of purchases that are available to users.

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26153331

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#33

Post by tfehring » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

jonwinstanley wrote: post #17

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? How do you define a platform?

Or Fortnite, for that matter? Why should I be forced to buy skins with Epic’s in-game currency instead of loading my own?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#34

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #18

ehvatum wrote: post #4

There is room for 3rd party app stores. Epic will argue that Apple does an absolutely ghastly terrible job of curating the Apple app store, as Apple really has little incentive not to suck completely. The EU court will agree. Apple will spend a year or two saying “it can’t be done”, then issue a signing certificate to Epic.

> There is room for 3rd party app stores. The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but resents having to help pay to support it. Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which case Apple will be forced to turn to…

The Apple tax pays for outsized profits for Apple shareholders. The actual cost of supporting the ecosystem is dwarfed by the absolute firehose of money coming out of the app store.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#35

Post by ocdtrekkie » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

ChrisLomont wrote: post #15

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

>No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing. How does this differ from "any programmable electronics should allow sideloading"? I don't see that as a very workable solution, legally, practically, or even in a pro-consumer sense. It would certainly drive the cost of most electronics up incredibly as all devices would need to produce APIs and upgradeability.

The bar is simple: If they allow third party apps at all, they're already providing those APIs, and must allow competitive use of them.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#36

Post by mhh__ » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

jonwinstanley wrote: post #17

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? How do you define a platform?

Pragmatically, I don't care, because no one who owns a Tesla is using it as their sole access to a computer (similarly with playstation). Many people now only use an iPad or iPhone these days.

In an ideal world I would force them (I probably wouldn't for a Tesla because diy software on a car...) to have some basic ability to load programs.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#37

Post by darknessmonk » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

> Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing.

The walled garden is a selling point, a feature - I don't care about sideloading at all. You want to sideload? Grab and Android.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#38

Post by flenserboy » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

I can't shake the feeling that Epic is a puppet, being used as a wedge to hash security on iOS devices. As much as it would be nice to have more control over one's iPhone, the horror of the Android marketplace is enough to give a body more than a little pause.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#39

Post by aboringusername » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #14

aboringusername wrote: post #11

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. On the other hand, Apple is acting as a platform owner and demanding that they continue to act as the sole store curator on their platform. I do not see the hypocrisy.

Epic demands Apple do thing = bad for Apple (good for Epic) no way

Apple demand Facebook do thing = Good for Apple (bad for FB) yes way

So Apple is allowed to get its own way, 100% of the time, no questions asked, what they want is what they get end of (by virtue of holding all the cards and owning the platform they dictate the rules on)

How about no? You can play by your rules in your sandbox, but Epic has a right to demand it's allowed a sandbox in the same park, maybe Apple will be forced to change its business if everyone starts playing in Epic's sandbox and consumers decide Apple's policies are rubbish?

That's the very definition of "competition" something Apple has avoided for over a decade at this point (as far as iOS inter-competition goes)

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#40

Post by efraim » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #18

ehvatum wrote: post #4

There is room for 3rd party app stores. Epic will argue that Apple does an absolutely ghastly terrible job of curating the Apple app store, as Apple really has little incentive not to suck completely. The EU court will agree. Apple will spend a year or two saying “it can’t be done”, then issue a signing certificate to Epic.

> There is room for 3rd party app stores. The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but resents having to help pay to support it. Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which case Apple will be forced to turn to…

Apple is well compensated for their ecosystem with the price of their phones. Epic wants to create their own store or be allowed to use another payment processor than Apple for in app purchases. Apple would still have plenty of revenue from the app store and hardware.

If epic and others was allowed to use multiple payment processors in the apps, or to install different app stores such as epic games or steam, you wouldn't have fewer choices you would have more.