Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership • Hacker News Board

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#11

Post by dimitrios1 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #7

I've had some god awful managers in my engineering career and my managerial philosophy is twofold: have empathy and keep coding. Most, if not all, of my managers over the past 10 years have been people managers cloaked as engineering managers who have all stopped programming a decade ago. So much respect is lost for managers who have turned their back on the very craft that brought them into management. Before the pe…

The best engineering manager in my career was not amongst the best developers I knew. (Conversely, the worst engineering manager in my career was one of the best developers I knew).

He had two particular skills that many will never have or take a decade or two to cultivate: he could provide you feedback, empathetically, and make you feel like he is genuinely interested in your success and improvement, and he could read a room like no other, often times being the one to say the right thing to break the tension in the room or ask the right question to get us over a roadblock.

I know you aren't saying be the best or focus on coding, but if I look back and had to pick between the two, I'd pick the engineering manager who has cultivated the soft skills. At a certain scale, all engineering problems become people problems.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#12

Post by austincheney » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

faeriechangling wrote: post #3

austincheney wrote: post #2

> Most interactions are ego-based because people aren’t as self-aware as they could be. Sad, but I have to agree. Self awareness is something people develop as a natural part of maturity. It is not a skill children have. For example play a board game or card game with children and realize they never know when it’s their turn to play despite watching the game, numerous reminders, and recitation of the rules. They are…

Well this was a very pleasant post to read as an autistic person. I can appearantly just have a lack of self awareness completely out of my control and this is embarassing, and demands harsh unpleasant words, even though this approach is likely to fail and inflict emotional trauma on me. "Empathy" after a social faux pas to me is kind of like a blameless post mortem. Blunt yet unjudgemental with a call to action and…

Usually a person with good empathy can pick up on social spectral disorders after some time and factor for this in their communications capabilities. This is often not a hard barrier.

The problematic people are those that cannot self reflect AND are incapable of realizing the nature of their dilemma. The problem is present when a situation demands harsh words and the troubled person is utterly incapable of receiving that communication.

> Perhaps your words are so likely to fail because because you're taking the wrong approach?

If a person commits to an action that is potentially harmful they must be halted and corrected even at cost of some minor embarrassment. If that person then attempts that harmful action again they should be severely counseled. The harshness of the words should reflect the severity of the failure. Empathy doesn’t mean agreement or kindness which are akin to sympathy.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#13

Post by halfmatthalfcat » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #11

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #7

I've had some god awful managers in my engineering career and my managerial philosophy is twofold: have empathy and keep coding. Most, if not all, of my managers over the past 10 years have been people managers cloaked as engineering managers who have all stopped programming a decade ago. So much respect is lost for managers who have turned their back on the very craft that brought them into management. Before the pe…

The best engineering manager in my career was not amongst the best developers I knew. (Conversely, the worst engineering manager in my career was one of the best developers I knew). He had two particular skills that many will never have or take a decade or two to cultivate: he could provide you feedback, empathetically, and make you feel like he is genuinely interested in your success and improvement, and he could re…

That's fair but my perspective as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. My people manager managers never had the skills to provide me with any growth, the only reason I'm at where I am today is because I decided I wanted to level up and taught myself outside of work.

It's my goal as a manager to be that manager that I never had and lead by example for my reports technically in addition to the expected soft skills of a traditional people manager.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#14

Post by marcinzm » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #7

I've had some god awful managers in my engineering career and my managerial philosophy is twofold: have empathy and keep coding. Most, if not all, of my managers over the past 10 years have been people managers cloaked as engineering managers who have all stopped programming a decade ago. So much respect is lost for managers who have turned their back on the very craft that brought them into management. Before the pe…

You highlight one of the reasons it's BAD for an engineering manager to still be coding or at least able to code your production code. It incentivizes them to just hack things themselves rather than building proper processes and structure for the rest of the team (on call rotations, training, breaking silos, etc.). Overall that leads to a worse engineering environment rather than a better one.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#15

Post by halfmatthalfcat » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #10

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #7

I've had some god awful managers in my engineering career and my managerial philosophy is twofold: have empathy and keep coding. Most, if not all, of my managers over the past 10 years have been people managers cloaked as engineering managers who have all stopped programming a decade ago. So much respect is lost for managers who have turned their back on the very craft that brought them into management. Before the pe…

I dont need managers to be coding. I do need them to have technical background and willingness to understand what tech is relevant to them - I had only bad experiences with non-technical managers. But I really dont understand why they should be coding. Even active developers are not able to fix whatever in any module, you fix only in areas you understand. When shit is on fire, I dont want managers or other random dev…

They should be coding because they're "engineering" managers. What's the point of having engineering in your title if you're not actually practicing the craft?

They should be coding because they'll be able to relate to their supports in a deeper and more fulfilling way. They'll be able to mentor and provide guidance on technology best practices and patterns.

They should be coding because they'll be able to more accurately plan and execute projects. Understanding and applying the technology is understanding it's pitfalls and anticipating potential upcoming challenges.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#16

Post by halfmatthalfcat » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #14

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #7

I've had some god awful managers in my engineering career and my managerial philosophy is twofold: have empathy and keep coding. Most, if not all, of my managers over the past 10 years have been people managers cloaked as engineering managers who have all stopped programming a decade ago. So much respect is lost for managers who have turned their back on the very craft that brought them into management. Before the pe…

You highlight one of the reasons it's BAD for an engineering manager to still be coding or at least able to code your production code. It incentivizes them to just hack things themselves rather than building proper processes and structure for the rest of the team (on call rotations, training, breaking silos, etc.). Overall that leads to a worse engineering environment rather than a better one.

I don't see where I made the connection between practicing the craft and hacking together solutions.

If an engineering manager (presumably one who attained this position because they were or are a good engineer) is going to fix something, they're going to apply best practices because they know what they're doing.

If an engineering manager was hired just because they know how to manage, well then they aren't really an engineering manager, are they? They're just a straight people manager and in my opinion, shouldn't be managing an engineering team. They should be a project manager.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#17

Post by marcinzm » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #15

watwut wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont need managers to be coding. I do need them to have technical background and willingness to understand what tech is relevant to them - I had only bad experiences with non-technical managers. But I really dont understand why they should be coding. Even active developers are not able to fix whatever in any module, you fix only in areas you understand. When shit is on fire, I dont want managers or other random dev…

They should be coding because they're "engineering" managers. What's the point of having engineering in your title if you're not actually practicing the craft? They should be coding because they'll be able to relate to their supports in a deeper and more fulfilling way. They'll be able to mentor and provide guidance on technology best practices and patterns. They should be coding because they'll be able to more accur…

>They should be coding because they'll be able to relate to their supports in a deeper and more fulfilling way.

That's a valid point although I've seen it go badly when a mostly out of touch manager (time is finite, even the most technical manager will be out of touch) thinks they're still at the top of their technical game. They then force out of date engineering decisions on the team.

>They'll be able to mentor and provide guidance on technology best practices and patterns.

That should be done by the senior engineers and tech leads with support from the manager. These are the people who spend 100% of their time thinking technology while even a technical manager will do it 25% of the time. The manager should be the one to structure these conversations, formalize mentorship processes and so on.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#18

Post by blacktriangle » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

dimitrios1 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best engineering manager in my career was not amongst the best developers I knew. (Conversely, the worst engineering manager in my career was one of the best developers I knew). He had two particular skills that many will never have or take a decade or two to cultivate: he could provide you feedback, empathetically, and make you feel like he is genuinely interested in your success and improvement, and he could re…

That's fair but my perspective as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. My people manager managers never had the skills to provide me with any growth, the only reason I'm at where I am today is because I decided I wanted to level up and taught myself outside of work. It's my goal as a manager to be that manager that I never had and lead by example for my reports technica…

The thing is that role model should not be your manager, it should be a senior developer. A good manager is not a role model to teach you, a good manager realizes the importance of lowly engineers having role models and creates a structured mentorship program to make sure that need is being met.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#19

Post by marcinzm » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:02 PM UTC

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #16

marcinzm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You highlight one of the reasons it's BAD for an engineering manager to still be coding or at least able to code your production code. It incentivizes them to just hack things themselves rather than building proper processes and structure for the rest of the team (on call rotations, training, breaking silos, etc.). Overall that leads to a worse engineering environment rather than a better one.

I don't see where I made the connection between practicing the craft and hacking together solutions. If an engineering manager (presumably one who attained this position because they were or are a good engineer) is going to fix something, they're going to apply best practices because they know what they're doing. If an engineering manager was hired just because they know how to manage, well then they aren't really an…

Engineering skills decay with time and even the most technical manager will be out of touch compared to someone who spend 100% of their time on code. They also have the pressure of the buck stopping with them and not having to deal with the tech debt fallout which creates an incentive to just hack things. Some will avoid this but most won't.

>presumably one who attained this position because they were or are a good engineer

Why do you presume this? Management is a very different skill set than engineering. The best engineers having to become managers to advance their careers is an anti-pattern which most modern tech companies avoid. Managers thus tend to be average engineers who are good at people and process.

Re: Soft Skills in Engineering Leadership

#20

Post by halfmatthalfcat » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

blacktriangle wrote: post #18

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair but my perspective as a lowly engineer was I wanted a role model to learn from and help upskill my career. My people manager managers never had the skills to provide me with any growth, the only reason I'm at where I am today is because I decided I wanted to level up and taught myself outside of work. It's my goal as a manager to be that manager that I never had and lead by example for my reports technica…

The thing is that role model should not be your manager, it should be a senior developer. A good manager is not a role model to teach you, a good manager realizes the importance of lowly engineers having role models and creates a structured mentorship program to make sure that need is being met.

I don't understand why managers cannot fulfill both roles though? The job of management isn't hard (I'm doing it). Outside of the project management responsibilities, there is a lot of time doing nothing. If I wasn't coding, as a manager, 80% of the time I would sit around doing nothing.

I strongly believe that managers should be able to fulfill both roles but maybe it's just because I've been burned by so many managers in the past.