Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#701

Post by imtringued » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:05 AM UTC

xapata wrote: post #247

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s terrible as a wide spread value store because it removes an important tool that governments have to handle the economy (dealt with debt via inflation aka printing money How does a static rather than unconstrained supply make something a LESS good store of value?

> How does a static rather than unconstrained supply make something a LESS good store of value? Because a healthy capitalist economy needs an incentive to invest. A steady, low, positive inflation rate is essential to encouraging those with capital to rent that capital out to those who need it for productive uses.

You're absolutely correct. USD is a poor store of value, by design, because productive activity is better than unproductive activity.

However, this doesn't say anything about Bitcoin, other than that it fails to be relevant as a currency. The reason why Bitcoin is a poor store of value is that owning Bitcoin doesn't guarantee that there will be an economy in the future that actually provides value equivalent to the value of your Bitcoin. If you invest into stocks or real estate you are making sure that there is a company or house out there that contributes to the economy.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#702

Post by tylerhou » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:06 AM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #690

tylerhou wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is inflating as an asset. I don't think this is precise. Inflation of an asset means that the asset itself drops in value, relative to the value of other goods. For example: when prices rise, the USD itself would be inflating because would then take more USD to buy goods. Bitcoin is rising in price compared to the USD. So it's not "inflating." If we treat Bitcoin as a currency, it's deflating because right…

I have used asset inflation in the past to mean the opposite of CPI inflation. The appreciation of assets without a corresponding increase in CPI inflation. I also refer to Bitcoin as a deflationary currency. The problem is that I needed a simple easy to understand term that cryptocurrency, real estate and stocks so I just referred to the entire class of goods gaining value relative to USD as "asset inflation" becaus…

I think a better term would just be “rise in asset prices/values,” or “asset appreciation.” You can add “in real terms” to clarify after inflation.

It more accurately conveys the fact that 1) the assets are increasing in value, compared to a basket of goods or the USD; and 2) doesn’t imply that the asset is a currency.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#703

Post by vmception » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:10 AM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #686

vmception wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a counterpoint if those countries also consume an insignificant amount of energy. Isn't a rebuttal different than a deflection? Anyway half - 3/4ths of bitcoin mining is using clean energy that wasn't going to be used for anything else, or a sustainability solution for energy that was going to be used as pollution.

> Anyway half - 3/4ths of bitcoin mining is using clean energy that wasn't going to be used for anything else While the clean energy claim may be true, why do you claim it wouldn't have been used for anything else?

because a lot of energy is not utilized if it will be lost in transit. they don't send it and there is extra capacity on site and from the specific source of energy. there are gigawatts of energy that can only be used at the source, which has never had a use until the mining machines showed up.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

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Post by rkagerer » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:14 AM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #526

mlyle wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... All being equal, it probably isn't good to build a system of distributed ledger whose entire trustworthiness and participation depends upon "proof of energy usage". Pushing one transaction through Bitcoin effectively uses about half the electricity that a typical US household uses in a month.

Going to need you to walk me through that calculation you came up with.

I was skeptical too, but approached it from this end:

At the moment, one Bitcoin transaction costs me about $10 in network fees. The party pushing it through gets, say, another $90 or so in reward for mining it (6.25 BTC reward per block ÷ 3500 transactions per block × $50000 per BTC).

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#705

Post by frankenst1 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:40 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #489

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The forefront of the Bitcoin frenzy isn't even on the blockchain, it's at the exchanges. Hardcore tech people and those who don't (or can't) trust institutions with their Bitcoin will pay the transaction fees to get their money out of exchanges and into their own wallet. The average retail investor, however, doesn't want to be their own bank. They just want in on the price action, while letting the exchange manage th…

“I'm aware of the 21 million maximum BTC cap” Better thought of as a configuration value set by people with most of the mining power, which last time I checked was PRC

The 51% attack you are thinking of applies only to transaction ordering and inclusion in blocks and does not apply to consensus rules (like the 21M limit). Anyone (one miner, 5%, 51%, 80%, ...) who decides to change these rules is free to do so and will split off in a new coin.

These splits have already happened multiple times (Bitcoin Gold, SV, ABC, Cash) and most claim to be "the real Bitcoin". They are all either dead or valued <1/100 of BTC.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#706

Post by frankenst1 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:44 AM UTC

banachtarski wrote: post #567

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The forefront of the Bitcoin frenzy isn't even on the blockchain, it's at the exchanges. Hardcore tech people and those who don't (or can't) trust institutions with their Bitcoin will pay the transaction fees to get their money out of exchanges and into their own wallet. The average retail investor, however, doesn't want to be their own bank. They just want in on the price action, while letting the exchange manage th…

https://news.bitcoin.com/reddit-post-reporting-teslas-bitcoi... Title: Reddit Post Reporting Tesla's Bitcoin Purchase From a Month Ago Was a Hoax Reportedly, the person claiming to be a Tesla insider with intel on the bitcoin purchase was actually some political science major college student tripping on acid. Crazy how so many people ate this story up.

Tesla's SEC filing (https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/0001...):

> Thereafter, we invested an aggregate $1.50 billion in bitcoin under this policy and may acquire and hold digital assets from time to time or long-term. Moreover, we expect to begin accepting bitcoin as a form of payment for our products in the near future, subject to applicable laws and initially on a limited basis, which we may or may not liquidate upon receipt.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#707

Post by varispeed » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 11:59 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #189

azinman2 wrote: post #120

So it sounds like lemming group think. It seems like someone one should hold “just in case,” but no real valid reason to do so yet (that I’ve heard). We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce. It can be used to transfer across borders, but there often is asymmetry in capital movement that makes this difficult in the places you need it most (poor countries with r…

The forefront of the Bitcoin frenzy isn't even on the blockchain, it's at the exchanges. Hardcore tech people and those who don't (or can't) trust institutions with their Bitcoin will pay the transaction fees to get their money out of exchanges and into their own wallet. The average retail investor, however, doesn't want to be their own bank. They just want in on the price action, while letting the exchange manage th…

I am pretty sure you don't own Bitcoin if it is not in your own wallet regardless of what T&C may be saying. They can always find a way to snatch your coins under any made up reason. They cannot do that if you have all the keys.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

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Post by Geee » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #598

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin as the gateway to Ethereum and the possibilities opened up by smart contacts such as the currently embryonic DeFi market. Paradigm shift isn't too strong a terminology.

What are some use cases? Someone downthread mentioned loaning money where 150% of the money is put in escrow as collateral. This didn’t make any sense to me. But some of the smartest people I follow are hyped about Defi. So....what can you do with it? Or could you do if adopted.

There aren't any use cases afaik. Ethereum is a casino and DeFi is just a new exciting game in the casino.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#709

Post by boublepop » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 12:23 PM UTC

Lorin wrote: post #435

lph wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, Tesla's Bitcoin purchase does make a lot of sense ... They then announced their Bitcoin purchase with fanfare that drove the price up, marking a quick return on their investment. Tesla is a car manufacturer! It doesn't make any sense at all! At any company that made sense, a CEO would lose his job for gambling $1B of company money in a casino totally unrelated to the company's business interests.

I'm afraid it makes sense if they are hedging bets against a major global economy...

Bitcoin is not a viable hedge against a global economic downturn. Just because people push these narratives doesn’t make them true. There is absolutely no evidence that Bitcoin would not crash just as fast or faster than the economy. There are other viable assets that have well studied and well documented track histories.

Crypto currencies are best compared to pink sheets prior to increased regulation, and no one in their right mind would tell you to buy pink sheets to hedge against economic downturn even if their favorite did show a 10000% increase in value.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#710

Post by djschnei » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 12:24 PM UTC

abiogenesis wrote: post #456

djschnei wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. It's incredibly easy and convenient to move BTC out of an exchange account to something you control (hardware or software wallet). Hell, some hardware wallet GUIs even have the ability to buy crypto baked right into the app (trezor suite for example).

That's what the OP says. It's either security (your wallet) or convenience (exchange).

> Yeah, one of the problems with the BTC model. You either get convenience or security but not both.

No, it's not what OP says... He's saying security and convenience are mutually exclusive in BTC. I'm saying that is not the case... You can use an exchange and transfer or use a hardware wallet with built in exchange capabilities. Making it seem like there is some inherent issue with the design/architecture that makes this impossible is extremely misleading.