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Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

theanarchistlibrary.org

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Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#161

This has been making the rounds lately, and the use of it hasn't sat well with me. I've struggled to articulate why; gonna try to do so here. The analysis is good, and finally getting to see the original source is better, because what tends to get circulated is way more reductive than this. But it seems like the list gets wielded in a way to stick the 'fascist' label on someone, and not much else. If someone hits 12…

> If someone hits 12 of the 14 markers, does that make him a fascist? What about six, or three, or one? Am I 1/14 fascist because I critique various aspects of modernism? > To the extent they someone does match the list, all that really does is note that he'd match the characteristics of a few governments in the early 20th century. But that's only one kind of totalitarianism, and obsessive focus on it allows other ki…

> People tend to forget that most of the Axis powers, save perhaps for Imperial Japan, were also extremely Fascist. Italy especially.

Nobody forgets this.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#162
post #19

I returned to this essay when I saw the photo of the Jake Angeli in the Capitol - a Q-supporter wearing an Indian buffalo mask and a tattoo of Odin, storming the capitol alongside evangelical Christians. Relevant quote: This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Ea…

This sort of thing struck me reading gulag archipelago. The courts used the class struggle dialectic to make any enemies of Lenin or Stalin criminals, regardless of what they'd actually done. I see this sort of thing all throughout our culture, not just Qanon.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#163
post #162
post #19

I returned to this essay when I saw the photo of the Jake Angeli in the Capitol - a Q-supporter wearing an Indian buffalo mask and a tattoo of Odin, storming the capitol alongside evangelical Christians. Relevant quote: This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Ea…

This sort of thing struck me reading gulag archipelago. The courts used the class struggle dialectic to make any enemies of Lenin or Stalin criminals, regardless of what they'd actually done. I see this sort of thing all throughout our culture, not just Qanon.

Archipelgo Gulag seems more like Stanislaw Lem’s procrustics in “Eden”.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#164
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of thing struck me reading gulag archipelago. The courts used the class struggle dialectic to make any enemies of Lenin or Stalin criminals, regardless of what they'd actually done. I see this sort of thing all throughout our culture, not just Qanon.

Archipelgo Gulag seems more like Stanislaw Lem’s procrustics in “Eden”.

I agree on the procrustics. I would say the traditionalism is just an accident of the more fundamental problem which is sacrificing truth to the cause. Look at all the crazy things believed by both Nazi and communist regimes, and how maintaining the personality cult at expense of the truth was paramount, e.g. the Nazi belief in an orbiting ice planet that housed the true race, or the communist agriculture theory promoted because a son of peasants came up with the idea. I see this same thing happening in our culture on all sides.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#165
post #19

I returned to this essay when I saw the photo of the Jake Angeli in the Capitol - a Q-supporter wearing an Indian buffalo mask and a tattoo of Odin, storming the capitol alongside evangelical Christians. Relevant quote: This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Ea…

My critique of this essay is that Eco implies that it is a contradiction for there to be an external enemy which is overpowering and humiliating, and yet at the same time easy to defeat if our people would just stand up to them. That is not a contradiction. If a people have been demoralized and degenerated, it is actually very easy for them to be in such a state.

A really great example of this phenomena is China.

A century ago, the Chinese were indeed oppressed by foreigners, who humiliated and dominated them. However, these outsiders were paper tigers, when the people were united and stood against them. The only reason these foreigners were oppressing them was because of the weakness of their leaders, compromising with the outsiders instead of kicking them out and putting up walls.

China is a Fascist success story, and it undermines Eco's essay.

Indeed, many anti-colonial struggles can be described that way. Foreigners ("immigrants") oppressing a local population in collusion with corrupt local elites and chieftains. And an indigenous population too divided to do anything about it. Fascist scholars would say that Fascism would have protected the American Indians. Plenty of Black nationalists like Marcus Garvey were actually self described Fascists, and wanted to use Fascism to resist European colonialism.

Indigenous tribes that have had their social fabric and identities compromised by foreign influence and corrupt elites allow themselves to be colonized. Usually it is capitalism that corrupts them. A flood of cheap goods completely undermines them, and destroys their way of life. They almost always outnumber their oppressors, and if they could just reclaim their sense of national identity, they could easily rise up and take back their country.

Anyway, I'm not saying that I agree with Fascism, but I do think that Eco is presenting a straw man of it, which is not a good thing if you are opposed to Fascism and want to defeat it.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QAnon is a sort of syncretism for conspiracy theories. It's managed to bring every conspiracy theory into its fold. (And conspiracy theories themselves were already very syncretic!)

Intersectionality is at its root a similarly syncretistic idea and praxis, though obviously it sits on a radically different "side" of the political spectrum than the Qanon nutcases.

[deleted]

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of onesidedness is exactly the cause of the issue. Virtually all of the great crimes of the last century were conducted by governments. While I wouldn’t consider myself an anarchist/libertarian/anti-government, it seems eminently reasonable to me to be deeply skeptical of centralized governmental authority. Whether that’s actually desirable or practical is a different matter.

Virtually all the great crimes were conducted by people. Let's just kill them all... Seriously though, large-scale crimes are committed by people with power, so it's not surprising to see governments in there. But that would be ignoring all gangs, guerrillas, sects, etc. You cannot really put in the same bag dictatorships and democracies. Not to say the latter are perfect. There are many examples of atrocities commit…

It seems to me that great crimes are only possible with centralized power sources. Typically that is a government, but it is often an unaccountable corporation, too. If power is distributed, you may have more gang and guerrilla activity, but that seems far less damaging than the Holocaust or the Soviet purges.

As I said, while I don’t follow the position myself, I think it’s pretty reasonable to be skeptical of powerful centralized governments.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your primary offence was of gross ignorance Well, I'm here now, trying to correct that. > You have conflated complex and nuanced concepts—like, say, the recognition of a revolutionary imperative with a general rejection of violence, or the “liberal democracy” with “unrestricted free speech”—and as a result you aren’t able to come to any logical conclusions. Isn't "liberal democracy" pretty incompatible with politic…

Isn't "liberal democracy" pretty incompatible with political violence? No, there is no simple conclusion to be drawn along those lines. We can clearly observe circumstances in which the goal of political violence is to achieve liberal democracy in a situation where it is perceived to be failing. A functioning democracy is one in which political violence is rendered unnecessary by providing peaceful and effective chan…

> We can clearly observe circumstances in which the goal of political violence is to achieve liberal democracy in a situation where it is perceived to be failing. A functioning democracy is one in which political violence is rendered unnecessary by providing peaceful and effective channels for resolving political conflict. The existence of political violence effectively demonstrates the lack of a more effective channel for resolving conflict, and its existence does not say anything useful about the support (or otherwise) of those ideals by those involved.

TL;DR sometimes violence is ok, if I am not satisfied with our democracy. If people use political violence it must be our fault that they are doing it, not the fault of those committing violence.

I often see this trotted out when groups like BLM are committing armed insurrection, burning down court houses, police stations, etc.

BLM might very well burn down the MN state capital building if Derek Chouvin gets acquitted, at which point people people who were so upset about the Trump supporters protesting in the capital building will then cheer for another capital building to be burned to the ground by mostly peaceful protesters, because that is violence that they have decided is good violence.

The problem with this argument, is that you have lost the high ground. ANYONE who is unsatisfied with the government or society has the green light now to be violent. They can trot out the same definition you gave, word for word.

Indeed, if White nationalists don't feel represented in government, and feel all peaceful means of expressing themselves have been exhausted, why is violence wrong for them? Would you say that in those cases we are the ones to blame, for marginalizing their voices?

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#169
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a dangerous path because it leads to dehumanizing the other. As I said, the exact same thing happens when people on the right call anyone left wing a communist. Exactly same phenomenon, just as dangerous.

What I'm saying is that it's going to happen regardless of the consequences, because of how languages evolve. Coming from a culture that likes to regulate language, I find that any effort in that vein tends to fail pretty spectacularly. At best, you can mandate spelling reforms. If dehumanization occurs, and people then counter that phenomenon, new words and new meanings will appear naturally just like they always ha…

People can choose what words they decide to use. They simply have to be educated enough to know the difference and concerned enough to care.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be a fairly common perspective, and I'll try to take it at face value and respond to it in parts. Sorry if I'm late and you got a bunch of other lengthy responses already. > For example, a lot of people who have vocally criticized America in the last 5 years as being a fascist country seem to be pretty opposed to liberal values like freedom of speech and nonviolence with many such people either rational…

> One problem I've had with this perspective is that the BLM movement is ongoing and has developed into a more coherent (but still decentralized) organization Yes, let me be perfectly clear that I'm not arguing that the whole BLM movement is violent. I distinguish carefully and deliberately between peaceful protesters and violent rioters. Certainly the majority was peaceful. Even still, there have been a lot of peopl…

> I want to understand why society (including a great many moderates) are only alarmed by illiberalism when it's labeled "fascism" (and conversely why we tolerate illiberalism in the name of combatting 'fascism').

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. I don't know how much the sympathies for authoritarian regimes and the calls to violence on twitter would translate to people taking action. The calls for revolution just seem like role-play to me. I just don't hear this sort of rhetoric being voiced by people actually doing the work of advancing progressive political causes. Maybe it's easier for me to dismiss the illiberalism on the left because I genuinely am not exposed to that much of it.

> it kind of feels like we're trading the liberal foundation of our society for some short term political expedience or catharsis, and that's deeply depressing.

I feel the same way about the behavior of the right in recent months.

> From the sounds of it, you think fascism is the more proximate threat?

Yeah pretty much. I believe fascism is gaining political traction. I'm concerned about the increasing militancy of white nationalist groups and the significant number of people in the US who think the election was stolen.

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