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Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

theanarchistlibrary.org

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Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#131
post #19

I returned to this essay when I saw the photo of the Jake Angeli in the Capitol - a Q-supporter wearing an Indian buffalo mask and a tattoo of Odin, storming the capitol alongside evangelical Christians. Relevant quote: This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Ea…

QAnon is a sort of syncretism for conspiracy theories. It's managed to bring every conspiracy theory into its fold. (And conspiracy theories themselves were already very syncretic!)

Oh, it's not as chaotic as you think.

If you have not read it already, check out Numero Zero by... hmmm... Umberto Eco.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QAnon is a sort of syncretism for conspiracy theories. It's managed to bring every conspiracy theory into its fold. (And conspiracy theories themselves were already very syncretic!)

Oh, it's not as chaotic as you think. If you have not read it already, check out Numero Zero by... hmmm... Umberto Eco.

Or maybe Foucault’s Pendulum even?

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#134

Well met > Franklin Roosevelt’s words of November 4,1938, are worth recalling:I venture the challenging statement that if American democracy ceases to move for-ward as a living force, seeking day and night by peaceful means to better the lot ofour citizens, fascism will grow in strength in our land. A very interesting quote that should be taken seriously today. Many Americans view our federal government poorly, on bo…

This is perhaps a tangent, but I always struggle in conversations about fascism. Wikipedia describes fascism as a specific collection of qualities: * Rejection of liberal democracy * Support for a totalitarian, single-party state * Led by a single strong dictator * Rejection that violence is automatically negative in nature * Imperialism, violence, and war can rejuvenate the state * Desirability for an economically s…

This seems to be a fairly common perspective, and I'll try to take it at face value and respond to it in parts. Sorry if I'm late and you got a bunch of other lengthy responses already.

> For example, a lot of people who have vocally criticized America in the last 5 years as being a fascist country seem to be pretty opposed to liberal values like freedom of speech and nonviolence with many such people either rationalizing left-wing violence (BLM riots as well as general antifa violence) if not outright arguing that political violence and even (capital-R) Revolution is necessary.

One problem I've had with this perspective is that the BLM movement is ongoing and has developed into a more coherent (but still decentralized) organization. According to the The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project (https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi...):

"Between 24 May and 22 August, ACLED records more than 10,600 demonstration events across the country. Over 10,100 of these — or nearly 95% — involve peaceful protesters. Fewer than 570 — or approximately 5% — involve demonstrators engaging in violence."

I disavow the violence and rioting. The looting and destruction of storefronts is unconscionable. But it doesn't represent the majority of the movement.

As for Antifa, that ends up being a whole conversation unto itself—a poignant one given the main topic of fascism. Antifa exists as an idea more so than a formal movement. It's not something you are, it's something you do. It is a form of counter protest directed at fascists and (particularly in the US) white supremacists. It isn't a club with members that you join. The most publicized actions are violent, but more often there is no violence involved. You can counter-protest a white nationalist rally, but you can also call the hotel they are staying at and warn the management that white nationalists will be frequenting the establishment.

I'd recommend watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwS_FMZ3nQ for a decent summary.

> Many support communism and talk about how great life was in the USSR or how amazing China is, which suggests that they're not just referring to some abstract communism that "hasn't been tried yet", but rather specific instances of communist regimes that tick many (all?) of the 'fascism qualities' boxes.

Funny enough, there's a derisive term for this in progressive circles: "Tankies"

They're an exceptionally fringe group, especially in the US, and I would appreciate some additional evidence for the claim that "many" support the USSR and China. Even for people on the left who explicitly advocate for socialism, they do so in advocacy of social justice and workplace democracy, neither of which is reflected at all in the USSR or China.

> many left-wing Americans seem to have pretty segregationist views on race even if they don't have a "master race" per se (perhaps one could argue that "people of color" is their "master race" in the way that various European identities coalesced into "white" in prior centuries?).

Again, I'd appreciate if you could provide some evidence for your claim of "many" left-wing Americans holding these views. I agree that in the last 20-30 years there has been massive re-segregation of schools in the US, and a significant demographic of Biden voters are the people who live in these very segregated suburbs. However, this issue is a common talking point for progressives in this country. I'd argue they're the only group bringing it up and attempting to address it. As for the "master race" thing, I am not entirely sure how to respond to this. Of course you can find any sort of fringe belief on the internet, but I have never seen any traction for this ideology in any of the progressive movements in the US. I know it has been a talking point when criticizing BLM (e.g. countering with "all lives matter"), but this criticism to me is intentionally misunderstanding the movement. BLM is meant to be aspirational, not exclusionary: Black lives also matter.

Two final notes:

1. You talk about a horseshoe where the fringes of the political spectrum are closer together. This is, in my opinion, an incorrect projection of the political landscape, since it implies a single dimension between right and left. I would encourage you to look at https://www.politicalcompass.org. One could get more complicated about it, but I think the distinction on authoritarian/libertarian and conservative/liberal is important. You can be a right-wing or left-wing authoritarian (e.g. Stalin vs. Hitler) and you can be a left-wing or right-wing libertarian (e.g. Noam Chomsky vs. Robert Nozick).

2. I don't want to dismiss the possibility or danger of left-wing authoritarianism. We have plenty examples of that. I do what to emphasize that fascism in particular is not one of them. It is a specific form of conservative authoritarianism that relies heavily on conservative ideology, specifically the desire for hierarchy. In every political movement we would identify as fascist, progressives and communists were the first group to be attacked as the fascists rose to power.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QAnon is a sort of syncretism for conspiracy theories. It's managed to bring every conspiracy theory into its fold. (And conspiracy theories themselves were already very syncretic!)

Basically the premise of the original Deus Ex . Life imitates art?

Funny enough, the design of Deus Ex was built from researching real conspiracy theory at the time.

> We did a vast amount of research into "real" conspiracies -- the Kennedy assassination, Area 51, the CIA pushing crack in East L.A., Dwight Eisenhower's UFO connection, and of course Freemasons tunneling below the Denver airport and building abducted-baby cafeterias for alien invaders at George Bush's direction. Only a fraction of this stuff ended up in the game, but it gave us a peek into the minds of conspiracy buffs that was both scary and useful.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131523/postmortem_ion...

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#136
post #19

I returned to this essay when I saw the photo of the Jake Angeli in the Capitol - a Q-supporter wearing an Indian buffalo mask and a tattoo of Odin, storming the capitol alongside evangelical Christians. Relevant quote: This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Ea…

QAnon is a sort of syncretism for conspiracy theories. It's managed to bring every conspiracy theory into its fold. (And conspiracy theories themselves were already very syncretic!)

Conspiracy theories tend to encourage syncretism. It's as easy to disbelieve the official narrative on one subject and to substitute it for a theory, as it is to do the same to another. Different theories are but different crimes from the same culprits.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your primary offence was of gross ignorance Well, I'm here now, trying to correct that. > You have conflated complex and nuanced concepts—like, say, the recognition of a revolutionary imperative with a general rejection of violence, or the “liberal democracy” with “unrestricted free speech”—and as a result you aren’t able to come to any logical conclusions. Isn't "liberal democracy" pretty incompatible with politic…

Isn't "liberal democracy" pretty incompatible with political violence? No, there is no simple conclusion to be drawn along those lines. We can clearly observe circumstances in which the goal of political violence is to achieve liberal democracy in a situation where it is perceived to be failing. A functioning democracy is one in which political violence is rendered unnecessary by providing peaceful and effective chan…

> We can clearly observe circumstances in which the goal of political violence is to achieve liberal democracy in a situation where it is perceived to be failing. A functioning democracy is one in which political violence is rendered unnecessary by providing peaceful and effective channels for resolving political conflict. The existence of political violence effectively demonstrates the lack of a more effective channel for resolving conflict, and its existence does not say anything useful about the support (or otherwise) of those ideals by those involved.

I'm having a hard time making sense of this. A precondition for democracy is that we submit to the democratic process. If one or more groups refuses to submit to that process (presumably because their vision is unpersuasive), it doesn't seem like an indictment of any particular democratic process. A perfectly good channel may exist for peacefully resolving conflict, but if one party to a conflict is utterly unwilling to peaceably resolve it then I'm not sympathetic to the idea that it's a deficiency in the channel. Moreover, that party may actively be sabotaging the democratic process (indeed, what is political violence in a liberal democracy but an extreme form of sabotaging the democratic process)?

> This is why complex issues cannot be boiled down to pithy one-liners. It would very obviously be contradictory to demand the right to free speech, while claiming it was incompatible for others to exercise that same right to object to you.

I wasn't debating whether or not objection or criticism are out of bounds of free speech--they are decidedly in-bounds. I think we're agreed on that much. I'm positing that threatening someone's livelihood and access to healthcare falls well out of bounds of free speech--that a society in which this is common is not a society that possesses "free speech".

So if you have a faction that advocates for speech codes and practices/condones cancellation and political violence, how can we credibly argue that that group is "fighting to restore democracy"? Aren't those behaviors among the ills associated with fascism, and if so, shouldn't we be similarly concerned about them? Or do those properties only become "evil" when arranged in the specific form that we call fascism?

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#138
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “past” link at the top is more convenient for this specific use case.

(Edit: never mind I forgot how this works.) That shows past HN front pages (in sort of a weird time-lapsed version that never actually existed) for particular days. How would you use that to get to past threads about a topic?

Sorry, I meant the _other_ past link at the top, the one associated with the article, between "hide" and "favorite".

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Umberto%20Eco%3A%20Ur-Fascism&...

I'd somehow never looked at the very top past link.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#139
post #19

I returned to this essay when I saw the photo of the Jake Angeli in the Capitol - a Q-supporter wearing an Indian buffalo mask and a tattoo of Odin, storming the capitol alongside evangelical Christians. Relevant quote: This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Ea…

QAnon is a sort of syncretism for conspiracy theories. It's managed to bring every conspiracy theory into its fold. (And conspiracy theories themselves were already very syncretic!)

I watched a little mini-documentary on QAnon the other day, and I was struck by how diverse the adherents are. I figured it'd be mostly older, middle-class white people, but footage of some of their protests revealed them to be a cross-section of all kinds of ages and races. It really does seem to have some kind of universal appeal.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#140

This has been making the rounds lately, and the use of it hasn't sat well with me. I've struggled to articulate why; gonna try to do so here. The analysis is good, and finally getting to see the original source is better, because what tends to get circulated is way more reductive than this. But it seems like the list gets wielded in a way to stick the 'fascist' label on someone, and not much else. If someone hits 12…

> Am I 1/14 fascist because I critique various aspects of modernism? No. Nevertheless-- isn't it your responsibility to know the intersection between your own personal beliefs and what's being used by, say, a neofascist movement in order to gain more followers? (Say, if that were the case.)

>isn't it your responsibility to know the intersection between your own personal beliefs and what's being used by, say, a neofascist movement in order to gain more followers?

I would say...no? Maybe in some cases, but I would think it rather unsustainable for humans in general to have to 1) keep records on what fringe elements believe and 2) be held accountable for people who share the same beliefs but also do things that are bad.

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