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California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

nytimes.com

231–240 of 299 posts

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#231
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works if you slice and dice the polity. Who says zoning in the Bay Area should be decided by current residents? The super commuter service workers from Modesto should certainly have a say. So should the families displaced to Phoenix or Las Vegas. In addition, it is not a fair characterization to describe apartment buildings as "a shot in the nuts."

Why should Modesto have a say in what gets built in San Francisco? I’m pretty sure the folks in Modesto would be pretty pissed if San Francisco was dictating building rules to them! And Phoenix or Las Vegas aren’t even in the same states or legal jurisdictions. If you told them San Francisco was going to be able to tell them what to build or how, you’d just get laughed at. If you think building a high density apartme…

1. The people in Modesto are pissed! San Francisco’s housing prices have been spilling over into their city for years! And San Francisco imports almost its entire population’s worth of people during the day to work in and contribute payroll taxes to the city. It’s not the great argument you think it is to claim that none of these people have a stake in its land use.

Additionally, Nevada and Arizona share a jurisdiction with California: the United States of America. The state is already taking land use out of city hands through SB35 et al., and this will only become more acute as each city loses credibility as a good faith actor. The federal government also dictates what can be built through mortgage policy. The subdivision itself was a policy invention to make it easy to guarantee federal mortgages.

2. Most residents do not give a crap about apartment buildings. Surveys prove this over and over. SB50, an upzoning bill, polled quite well with the general population. The ones who do will quickly get over themselves when it becomes clear that apartments aren’t a “shot to the nuts.” Honestly, this sentiment is extremely weird and endemic to America; most countries with great standards of living manage to live in varied urban topologies just fine.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NIMBY problem suggests that it's not so much your fault at all - the locals would have passed zoning laws preventing housing for you from being built, as they did in SF ("protect our views" and such) - but actually the fault of the locals for resisting density upgrades. Imagine, in SimCity terms, if your Low-Density High-Wealth Residential citizens passed a ballot measure preventing you from building Medium-Densi…

It would help a lot if the dense housing being built wasn’t so hideous.

Underappreciated.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#233
post #22
post #4

Nowhere is building enough housing for growth. In low cost of living places, chances are if you look at population data, the metro region has been stagnant for decades which has alleviated pressure on supply. In any area with growth at all, prices rise because we don't build actual dense housing like we did before WWII (when row houses and mixed use development in walking distance to frequent public transit were the…

It's handy to say "nowhere is building" but it's not really supported by the data. Look at Dallas and Houston compared to San Francisco. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=B6Tc

Those cities are much larger, both in size and population. DFW is 8x the population of SF. According to Google, at least.

Meanwhile those new building numbers are NOT 8x.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#234

California is uniquely messed up because of Prop 13. There's way too much regulation to getting anything built, unless somehow less land starts to exist in States like Texas which don't cripple housing developers, it'll always be much cheaper to leave the Golden State. From my time in LA I found there to be a very nasty spiral. Whereas young adults will never be able to get their own places to live, this impedes thei…

This comment is pretty gross, even by HN standards. Me and my friends are all in our twenties living just outside LA (Pasadena). They are some of the kindest and hardest-working people I know. Don't blame the city for your poor choice in acquaintances.

I don't blame the kids who can't move out. California should have a better housing policy. I came from a very very bad home and luckily I was able to find a place for 600 or so.

That's impossible now.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're being very unfair here. When you choose a place to live you are not only choosing the structure in which you reside, you are choosing the surrounding environment as well. The expectation that one can settle down and expect their city to be built to a finished state which is kept frozen in time is an incredibly damaging mindset. City planners have to predict what is going to happen in the future decades ahead.…

> City planners have to predict what is going to happen in the future decades ahead. Current trend: single family houses have shot up in demand due to remote work. So is the prescription "tear down single family houses"? Seems like cities that do that are just going to push people even faster towards other areas which aren't so saturated. If this trend continues some sort of balancing between not just SF/NY but even…

Looking at the listings in the Bay Area, condos are more expensive than homes, with the same square footage, since they're new and "luxury". I question if tearing down houses for something high density would make anything cheaper.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#236
post #8

I feel like I got served an appetizer and a small dessert, with no main course in between. California has a housing crisis in some cities. Californians are moving out of those cities. The cities that they're moving into are experiencing an increase in demand (directly restating the previous). That's pushing up prices (not shocking), which is preventing some people with less money from outbidding people with more mone…

Demonizing single family houses seems rather dated in 2021. Single family home prices are surging in much of California too (while apartment prices and condo prices... not so much!), it's not just "everyone is fleeing!" California was short on both types of housing - what has changed is that it is in even higher demand now! And if remote work continues after COVID, that will continue. Add to that more efficient elect…

People may prefer single-family homes in a vacuum, all things being equal, but people don't live in vacuums and all things aren't equal. If high-demand cities were allowed to build more apartment buildings, then the value proposition would be undeniable. The very fact that many lots with single-family homes on them retain those homes by making the alternatives illegal should be seen as pretty strong evidence for this claim.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#237
post #36
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The structure itself does depreciate (ask any landlord!). It's the land value that's surging.

Sure, but the structure and the land are tightly bound. I can't buy or sell a structure without also buying or selling the land that it sits on, so this is kind of irrelevant.

You absolutely can, but moving structures can get pretty expensive.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#238
post #141

Why is this always framed as a problem caused by people looking for a place to live? I moved to SF for a job. I'm not the one who decided to not build enough new housing for 30 years. I'm not the one who decided to approve all those new office buildings. Yet I was the problem for renting an overpriced apartment from an SF native who bought in the 90s, and now pays less than $8K/yr in taxes on a place worth over $1M.…

I've lived in several US cities over the course of my life, and the only constant is that whoever you talk to, the problems are caused by the people who moved there after them.

Standard with any kind of human movement.

Once they are in, people want the door shut right behind them.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#239
post #158

The problem is that not only is there zero appetite to phase out housing-as-investment boosting policies like the mortgage interest deduction, imputed rent exemption, and cap gains exemption at the federal level, en vogue affordable housing strategies have focused on keeping interest rates low, providing 1st time home-buyer tax credits, and strengthening fair lending regulations. The U.S.(western nations with high ho…

In the UK mortgage interest deductions were eliminated from income tax but it just pushed professional landlords to move to holding property in more elaborate incorporated structures

Individual tax payers should be able to deduct all interest payments just like corporations. Not just mortgage interest but also interest on auto loans, credit cards, etc.

Re: California’s affordable housing problem is really a national one

#240
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building apartments is not a pox on a community. In fact, the most valuable real estate on the planet has lots of apartments. And are you seriously asking why people may want to live someplace for reasons other than it being an undistinguished suburb? School, weather, jobs, community?

And what right do they have to impose on others to change and take damaging consequences so they can be happier or their life easier without compensating them for it?

Views are not protected and neither is zoning. If you want to have the right to exclude apartments from a neighborhood, go ahead and buy all the land. I’d be surprised if single family zoning survived a legal challenge.
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