Earlier quoted context omitted.
LOL the whole “fall guy” thing is how companies keep doing what they’re doing while making some symbolic penance. For a software company a fuckup of this magnitude should be: all customers leave, company dies, execs never work again. Anything less is an insufficient incentive to work extremely hard to prevent this from happening.
Years ago, the company I worked at had a very big production issue which resulted in a customer's database being deleted. Of course, the customer was furious and called the CEO asking for the person responsible to be fired. Calmly, our CEO said: 'No. If there's anyone in this company who will never make that mistake again it's him.'
SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
241–250 of 294 posts
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Detection is inadequate, because detecting the open barn door after the horse left is not helpful. > Sprinklers That is "we can prevent the server room from being destroyed" thinking, rather than "how do we survive the server room being destroyed" I'm proposing.
but isn't focusing on detection the fundamental change in perspective required? I.E.: You're no longer assuming there is a set of steps you can do to ensure it will never happen to you because it _will_ happen to you.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
LOL the whole “fall guy” thing is how companies keep doing what they’re doing while making some symbolic penance. For a software company a fuckup of this magnitude should be: all customers leave, company dies, execs never work again. Anything less is an insufficient incentive to work extremely hard to prevent this from happening.
And if you ever ignore a red light, pay your taxes late or do anything other than your absolute best to be an upstanding citizen you should be put into prison for the rest of your life.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
An attack has multiple stages. Stuxenet's attack formula was: inflitrate an airgapped network -> silently spread within -> silently destroy complex unique equipment Solarwinds attack forumla seems to be: compromise central infrastructure -> silently spread to customers via compromised updates -> silently exfiltrate useful data/create an advanced persistent threat (APT). Because the initial compromise (oh a bad passwo…
There is no comparison. Stuxnet "worked by first causing an infected Iranian IR-1 centrifuge to increase from its normal operating speed of 1,064 hertz to 1,410 hertz for 15 minutes before returning to its normal frequency. Twenty-seven days later, the worm went back into action, slowing the infected centrifuges down to a few hundred hertz for a full 50 minutes. The stresses from the excessive, then slower, speeds ca…
>The solar winds hack is an otherwise unremarkable trojan that spread exclusively due to the bad security measures of solarwinds.
We don't have sufficient information to say what happened after the trojan landed is unsophisticated. All we have is the idea that microsoft benefits from making their attacker seem more competent than they are, which is true.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#245I've found my experience designing gearboxes for Boeing has applicability to software design. For example, the fundamental idea with airplane design is not to design components that cannot fail, as that is impossible. The idea is to design the system to be tolerant of failure . Every part in the system is not "how can we make this part never fail" but "assume it failed. How does the airplane survive?" This is a funda…
Some questions a security professional should ask: 1. What happens when the root password is guessed by a malicious person? 2. What happens when a trusted employee is really an enemy agent? 3. What happens when we download and install a malicious update from a trusted vendor? 4. What happens when the server room burns down? 5. What happens when a malicious USB stick is plugged into our secure network? 6. What happens…
1. Which resources are held by the company?
2. Which actors are interested in these resources (both benign and malicious)?
3. What could threaten the confidentiality, integrity and availability of these resources?
4. How likely are these threats?
5. What would the impact be if these threats would occur?
6. Given the likelihood and impact of each of these threats, form a method to handle these threats.
7. Execute on the plan.
Furthermore, the results of each of these steps should be documented and periodically reviewed.
That is what a security professional should ask.
An even more professional security professional should model the network of threats. For example, one disgruntled employee might have a relatively small negative impact on many different resources, but causing a large impact as a whole.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#246Largest impact, sure. But architecturally it was a relatively simple formula - compromise a widely used package and sleep on it until it was pervasive enough to be a valuable hack. I disagree with this being the most sophisticated though. Unless I'm missing something about this hack, the Stuxnet[1] architecture, complexity, and long term planning feel far more sophisticated than the SolarWinds hack. [1] https://en.wi…
You are vastly underestimating the lengths that this attack when to avoid detection. They didn't just hijack Solarwinds updates and inject malware. They did things like concealing the commands of malware in legitimate looking Solarwinds packets. When they infiltrated a place, they had the malware sleep for months. They carefully avoid standard malware detection techniques and you can only do that if you have very sophisticated engineers. This isn't just some scripts someone pulled from the internet.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#247I've found my experience designing gearboxes for Boeing has applicability to software design. For example, the fundamental idea with airplane design is not to design components that cannot fail, as that is impossible. The idea is to design the system to be tolerant of failure . Every part in the system is not "how can we make this part never fail" but "assume it failed. How does the airplane survive?" This is a funda…
Speaking as a security professional, this viewpoint already exists in software in various concepts like "defense in depth" and "zero-trust networking". > It seems pretty well established that making secure software is impossible. Time to pivot to designing software systems that are tolerant of inevitable security breaches. This is the nature of "zero-touch networking". More generally, we talk about "security boundari…
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
The attacker in this case new the exact moves to insert a backdoor into .NET software. It wasn't hard to do, requiring no science. But Microsoft's "system of trust" was undermined. The attacker was even inside Microsoft and Azure. No anti-virus, no "defender", no amount of basic or advanced telemetry caught this. FireEye alone caught it... By accident. The real "elephant in the room" is that software security continu…
I wouldn't say they caught it "by accident". They caught it the way that most organizations detect a compromise: they saw some suspicious network traffic and they investigated. They just happen to have among the most sophisticated investigation capability in the world.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#249I've found my experience designing gearboxes for Boeing has applicability to software design. For example, the fundamental idea with airplane design is not to design components that cannot fail, as that is impossible. The idea is to design the system to be tolerant of failure . Every part in the system is not "how can we make this part never fail" but "assume it failed. How does the airplane survive?" This is a funda…
There are variations on this theme. An under studied and under used approach is extreme compartmentalization, where components are e.g. isolated in processes with only one simple input and one simple output allowed: for a codec for example, the only thing you can do if the codec code has a security bug and if you manage to control the stream and are able to inject a malicious one, is to change the output; which is not very useful given you could always change the output to whatever you want if you have arbitrary control on the input stream... Well at some point you may want to avoid CPU hogging too, and limit max memory allocation if that primitive is available, but having that kind of limits can be systematized in such an architecture.
So this variation makes the hypothesis that the codec can fail, but that the container is reliable. And there is no sound security architecture anymore if the container is not secure (or let's say not simple enough to be rated secure with high confidence). So you will always have to put some root(s) of trust in your system. Although you can get some benefits from mere mitigations, and sometimes they are more realistic esp. if you try to encapsulate legacy software, and we know a lot of SW activity is management of legacy software. But that's quite weak compared to a real security architecture, where it is reasonable to strongly trust the trusted components because they are simple enough, and where hard security properties are logically derived from those reasonable hypotheses.
Now you may want to imagine russian dolls of containers with decreasing restrictions (and then even more complex network of components), but if you dig it is likely to rely on the same techs as your extremely restricted component, and when not the case you only have very few tech-distinct layers (let's say process, then VM), so breaking out of extremely isolated ones would likely be the most problematic cases anyway. => you really can't do sound designs without some trusted components (or in a network: computers -- etc.) Of course you can add random mitigations everywhere on top of that, esp. if you are sure they won't decrease the security.
TLDR: mere mitigations are not a security architecture, and you won't necessarily be able to stack tons of them to be sure to resist in case just one fail. Some highly reliable components are still a must if you want confidence in the resulting system. Evidence: see the complex JS->browser->OS->VM escape chains in capture the flag or even real world attacks.
Re: SolarWinds hack was 'largest and most sophisticated attack' ever: MSFT president
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
The attacker in this case new the exact moves to insert a backdoor into .NET software. It wasn't hard to do, requiring no science. But Microsoft's "system of trust" was undermined. The attacker was even inside Microsoft and Azure. No anti-virus, no "defender", no amount of basic or advanced telemetry caught this. FireEye alone caught it... By accident. The real "elephant in the room" is that software security continu…
> is that software security continues to be marketing theatre Overall I tend to agree with your general points, but, this statement. Would you say that seatbelts are "safety theatre" because some people die in car accidents while wearing a seatbelt? I really don't think it's fair to attribute all software security as BS, especially given the resources state actors throw at breaking software. It's like arguing your se…
Seatbelts are real security measures. Still, more than 60K people die every year in motor accidents in North America and in the EU. Seatbelts cannot save life in all cases, such as outrageous speeds, but they are a sane measure for most -- if not all -- use-cases of driving.
In this compromise, the major purveyor of OS and security products itself was compromised. No company, no $agency did due diligence. Some of these victims are supposed to be in the business of high-assurance and due diligence.
None of the systems that we are conditioned to believe to be effective actually worked. And it was a standard use-case for all the victims.