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Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

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Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#151

Post by Dma54rhs »

ForHackernews wrote: post #21
reedf1 wrote: post #14

I am so conflicted about the environmental impact of Proof-Of-Work. In many ways it feels like an arbitrary energy spend - but I think criticizing cryptocurrency for it seems a little disingenuous when we don't apply the same logic to other areas. What's the environmental impact of better refresh rates on monitors? What's the environmental impact of large scale cctv systems? What's the environmental impact of western…

No other systems I know of are deliberately designed to continuously become less efficient. That's why Bitcoin/PoW is in a different category to me: It's a Red Queen's Race where all the miners are incentivized to keep wasting more and more energy (for no greater benefit) or else risk that somebody else can execute a 51% attack. Imagine if your email host needed to keep burning more and more energy, not to send any m…

All the major industries are built on people consuming and buying more, from clothes to phones. They give power ratings for electronics themselves but that is for that one unit not how they expect you to keep buying more and more. We could ban tons of industries if we wanted to and life would go on, it's difficult to say what deserves the energy spent and what not.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#152

Post by solosoyokaze »

deeeeplearning wrote: post #145
solosoyokaze wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This scenario" being the complete disbanding of the US military? I imagine everyone would be using crypto at that point since there would be no USD.

Yay I can't wait for a trip to the grocery store to take 12 hours because every transaction takes 20 minutes. lol. This is just pure bitcoin hype, there are far better coins to use if you are actually interested in them as currency.

I don't see Bitcoin as currency, it's a store of value. You're correct that there are better coins for currency.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#153

Post by [deleted] »

dsukhin wrote: post #30

It's worth comparing Bitcoin's proof of work to other schemes of maintaining currency value to understand this in a relative sense. The Military Industrial Complex which arguably is the mechanism by which the dollar maintains its position as the global reserve currency puts out 152MtCO2/yr [1]. Without making any judgement on if this ratio is reasonable: this is 3-5x more than BTC POW but arguably also contains other…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#154

Post by the_local_host »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #69
ComodoHacker wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's more reasonable to compare the energy footprint of cryptocurrency with that of our traditional fiat currencies. Including all computing power used by banks to settle their transactions.

You really also need to include the entire military budget (and eco damage) as that's what props up the state, which backs the fiat.

People wouldn't stop spending money on weapons in a Bitcoin world. If the global economy is dominated by a small number of people who got in on Bitcoin early, against a vast majority who are born with no Bitcoin and no way to get it except from those who already have it, strife can be expected.

To the extent that inequality, competition, and unfairness create tension, that tension doesn't go away just because there's a different set of people at the top.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#155

Post by solosoyokaze »

Nursie wrote: post #150
solosoyokaze wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you that they're apples and oranges. But I also think it doesn't make any sense to complain about Bitcoin's energy usage as I see it as well worth the investment.

Needless to say, I think that in a world where we are trying to become (as a general rule) more power-efficient in order to combat CO2 emissions, that's not the case. Adding whole new countries-worth of power use just for some new financial geekery really doesn't seem worth it. But I'm glad we agree the comparison with the existing system is a silly one.

It's not just financial geekery, it's a complete re-configuring of our society including the dissolution of the state. Combating the eco destruction wrought by entities like the US government is a big piece of the puzzle.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#156

Post by Nursie »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #95

Cryptocurrency is still something that legacy financial systems could easily out-compete given an appropriate regulatory environment. There are things Bitcoin is better at than e.g. credit cards. If you're a trusted merchant with shady customers, once the transaction posts you don't have to worry about scammers fraudulently disputing the charge or your bank cutting you off because that happened too often. You can get…

Even legit vbendors screw up, or go bankrupt, or any number of other things.

Chargeback and other consumer credit-card protections are very useful. Regulations don't prohibit irreversible transaction mechanisms, basically nobody wants them.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#157

Post by solosoyokaze »

simiones wrote: post #149
solosoyokaze wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asserting that you can't have a currency independent of a country without crypto. It's a prerequisite to defunding warmongering countries.

Warmongering has next to nothing to do with currency. If anything, limited supplies of anything, including bitcoin, are a likely to spark wars, not end them. If you truly wish to help stop wars, join a peace-loving organization, attend marches, lobby politicians. You'll find all of the real work on this are in leftist organizations, which fight against the real foundations of war, such as inequality, ideas of excepti…

> Warmongering has next to nothing to do with currency.

Quite the contrary. You'll find that many currencies were created specifically to support an army or war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_American_currency

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#158

Post by shanusmagnus »

Nursie wrote: post #113
viklove wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin isn't a bank, it's a currency. You can't do that with the USD either, and you could build a banking platform on top of bitcoin to allow for chargebacks and credit lines. The benefit of BTC is that when your bank mismanages their assets a la 2008, resulting in a bank run, you know your assets are safe instead of having to rely on the Fed to bail out your bank. Your money is in your control, not in the control…

> Bitcoin isn't a bank, it's a currency. You can't do that with the USD either, and you could build a banking platform on top of bitcoin to allow for chargebacks and credit lines. The point is when we're looking at comparative energy use, you can't just point at the whole banking system and compare it to Bitcoin, as if it's an apples to apples comparison, because the banking system provides an embarassment of service…

People often critique btc by saying that it is slowly re-creating the existing banking system. That's largely true, but what makes it interesting is what this re-creation is built on top of. Or perhaps: what it's _not_ built on top of. Nic Carter does a nice job of discussing this [1].

[1] https://www.coindesk.com/what-bloomberg-gets-wrong-about-bit...

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#159

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Nursie wrote: post #156
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #95

Cryptocurrency is still something that legacy financial systems could easily out-compete given an appropriate regulatory environment. There are things Bitcoin is better at than e.g. credit cards. If you're a trusted merchant with shady customers, once the transaction posts you don't have to worry about scammers fraudulently disputing the charge or your bank cutting you off because that happened too often. You can get…

Even legit vbendors screw up, or go bankrupt, or any number of other things. Chargeback and other consumer credit-card protections are very useful. Regulations don't prohibit irreversible transaction mechanisms, basically nobody wants them.

> Regulations don't prohibit irreversible transaction mechanisms, basically nobody wants them.

Please don't just make stuff up. Point me to the credit card I can get which doesn't allow for chargebacks. I want to use it to buy things from people I trust who don't trust me, because that is an actually useful thing that some people have a legitimate reason to do.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#160

Post by tor11 »

Nursie wrote: post #84
solosoyokaze wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can already do many things with crypto that you cannot do with the traditional banking system. Can you open 10,000 bank accounts right now? I can make 10k wallets. There are so many new things we can do with crypto that it's going to take decades for people to discover them.

The number of times such an activity would be useful to me is zero. However calling my bank and having cash recalled from fraudulent (or even just bankrupt) merchants, that's happened. Who do I call at Bitcoin?

> The number of times such an activity would be useful to me is zero.

what about sending money to someone far away? ever tried? or just living in a bubble using a single fiat to buy coffee

your limited use argument is tiresome. you can not send money to anyone you want with fiat. most can not send money to you. you are not free

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