Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#181

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

tssva wrote: post #170

fooqux wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies like Intuit have successfully lobbied our government to halt any sort of bill that would make it better. The entire thing could be easily automated; other countries have proved that. But then Turbo tax wouldn't get to rake in all that $$$. Seriously though, I would love (hate) to read what sort of ethical backflips they had to do to make IRS reform a bad thing. I'm presuming they tried to make logical argum…

My state had an online tax system in test for a few years. Over the course of 3 - 4 years it was opened up to a larger group of tax payers with potentialy more complex tax returns. The final year of testing I was one of those selected to use it. The following year it was going to be rolled out to everyone. The state had invested millions in it. The legislative session before it was to go live Intuit successfully lobb…

In which state did this happen?

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#182

Post by dheera » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #33

bemmu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland it's "we think you owe X amount of taxes, if you agree, do nothing".

I wonder how many people actually bother claiming their home office as an expense for 2020. It's pretty easy to do (I did it), but the benefit isn't that massive and inaction is easier than action. The standard flat deduction for "work-related expenses" is 750 euro and you can bump that to 900 euro if you worked remotely for >50% of the year's workdays. Of course, if you actually incurred more expenses (and kept trac…

In the US the home office deduction only applies if you are self-employed, which is really stupid because a lot of people needed to move into bigger apartments during 2020 to be efficient at remote work.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#183

Post by vulcan01 » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #137

warent wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is exactly right is it? My understanding is it's not about testing you, it's just a matter of resource allocation in a severely inefficient system. The IRS does not have the resources to manually verify all of everyone's income, so instead they use a process of flags which trigger audits of varying depth. Flags include things such as certain reported amounts/types of values. Shallow audits review s…

Companies like Intuit have successfully lobbied our government to halt any sort of bill that would make it better. The entire thing could be easily automated; other countries have proved that. But then Turbo tax wouldn't get to rake in all that $$$. Seriously though, I would love (hate) to read what sort of ethical backflips they had to do to make IRS reform a bad thing. I'm presuming they tried to make logical argum…

> I'm presuming they tried to make logical arguments.

Why would they need to make logical arguments? Money (lobbying) is far better at influencing politicians.

However, the politicians that are getting lobbied sometimes try to make logical arguments, and they typically say that making the process harder encourages popular support for lower taxes.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#184

Post by dawnerd » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

owenmarshall wrote: post #144

sargun wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where can you download that?

Make a good-faith error when you file your taxes. The IRS will send you a letter detailing what you did wrong per their records, your corrected taxes, and how to correct their records if you disagree. That’s what happened to me when TurboTax applied too many credits. That’s when I learned that the IRS had everything they needed to just send me a bill.

They don’t know about any deductions you might have though. If you’re not itemizing I guess that’s fine but for us that have a lot more stuff being written off it’s impossible for it to just be a bill.

That said there are ways they could build around it but it’s the IRS so that’ll never happen.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#185

Post by ta1234567890 » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #176

ta1234567890 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They’re trying to draw more attention to it That’s what they are claiming, but there are many ways (probably a lot better), of drawing attention to taxes, aside from forcing you to go through a bad process. Additionally, if they were truthful about what they are saying, they should be trying to draw attention to government budgets and make them transparent, i.e. how much the government spends and collects. Governme…

Drawing attention to government budgets isn’t sufficient because most people just assume “someone else” will pay for them.

So was this tried somewhere and that’s what happened? Or are you just making it up?

Drawing attention to budgets should not only be about the way the money is spent, but also about the way the money is collected.

In any case, the point still stands. There are many ways to make people be aware of their taxes, and probably one of the worst is making it hard for people to file their tax return.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#186

Post by rayiner » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

Majromax wrote: post #174

rayiner wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s only a good reason if you’re opposed to the actual programs and/or outcomes. If you favor those programs and outcomes, making people “painfully aware” of their cost almost certainly undermines them. Not at all. I support bigger government providing more services. I’d happily pay a lot more taxes. But I also support forcing people to grapple with the cost of government once a year. They should be making the i…

> But I also support forcing people to grapple with the cost of government once a year. But that's one-sided: people do not have the same requirement to "grapple" with the benefits of government once a year. That feeds right into known cognitive biases, where we underweight small but steady effects and overweight concentrated effects. If you had a "yearly day of reckoning" with your partner where you re-hashed every…

> But that's one-sided: people do not have the same requirement to "grapple" with the benefits of government once a year.

Presumably you experience that every day. Moreover, politicians spend tons of time talking about those benefits.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#187

Post by tptacek » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #151

Hamuko wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good reason? No. A reason? Lobbying.

It’s interesting to me that people assume it’s lobbying, and not the fact that Americans are the most anti-tax people on the planet, creating a strong constituency for making tax filing difficult to increase public visibility of tax rates. In the 2020 election, pretty much every ballot measure to increase taxes failed, including in blue states like Illinois and Colorado. Other countries have lobbying too. What they d…

I mean, dislike of taxation is apparently such a part of Greek culture that they've turned tax avoidance into a national sport, right? Presumably it's not just us.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#188

Post by rayiner » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

ta1234567890 wrote: post #185

rayiner wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drawing attention to government budgets isn’t sufficient because most people just assume “someone else” will pay for them.

So was this tried somewhere and that’s what happened? Or are you just making it up? Drawing attention to budgets should not only be about the way the money is spent, but also about the way the money is collected. In any case, the point still stands. There are many ways to make people be aware of their taxes, and probably one of the worst is making it hard for people to file their tax return.

> So was this tried somewhere and that’s what happened? Or are you just making it up?

It’s been tried in America. The idea that we’ll have Scandinavian-style benefits without raising taxes on “middle class people” (defined to include people making as much money as five median households) is the centerpiece of the platform of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, which has tremendous media visibility. Everyone acts like someone else will pay the $30 trillion price tag for Medicare for All, etc.

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#189

Post by jsmith45 » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #122

Robin_Message wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most UK citizens never fill in a tax form. VAT is handled by shops for you. Council tax (local tax based on property value) you are sent a bill based on the value of your property. There are various exemptions and deductions for exceptional cases, but otherwise you just pay the amount. Income taxes are deducted by your employer from your paycheck under a system called PAYE (pay as you earn). It works basically perfec…

I would 100% opposed to this type of opaque tax system where the amount of money taken by the government is never reveled to the people it is taken from.

This would be more similar to the IRS sending you a filled out 1040 along with a note:

> We have provided a pre-filled 1040 based on your W-2s, Form 1099s, 1098s etc. We have made the following assumptions while preparing: > your marriage filing status remains unchanged since last year, > your dependents remain unchanged since last year, > you have no income beyond that reported to us, > you do not qualify for any deductions/ credits beyond those indicated in forms we have received. > > If all of the above assumptions are correct, you may sign the enclosed form and return it. Otherwise, you may use the provided pre-filled numbers and worksheets as a starting point, and make the necessary changes.

In the above scenario, one can very clearly see the amount of tax one paid, and the amount of income, as both are clearly indicated on the "postcard"-sized main 1040 form (which is a good joke as basically everybody will have one or more additional forms they need to attach to it.)

Re: Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp

#190

Post by Delk » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

Majromax wrote: post #159

piva00 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that is the same here in Sweden, the main difference is: we get a pre-filled tax form with everything Skatteverket (the Tax Authority) knows about your income. You are free to adjust as you need, you can make deductions as you would in the US, we just don't have to pay for software to help fill out our forms. Why you would prefer to have to re-enter data that your government already has and that they will matc…

> Why you would prefer to have to re-enter data that your government already has and that they will match against your own data I don't really understand... Complacency, complexity, corruption, and conservatism. First, there's a strong status quo bias. The system works as-is, and the tax code is also set up in a way that's relatively simple for the median worker, so there's not a huge benefit to a change. Additionall…

> Lastly is the ideology of fiscal conservatism in the United States. Anti-tax politicians (usually Republicans) argue that automatic filing would make it easier for future governments to raise taxes, since people would not have to calculate themselves how much they're paying in federal tax.

I kind of understand this, but kind of don't. I live in one of the countries where tax forms are pre-filled and you only make corrections for whatever wasn't already known to the tax authority. I don't really need to actively file everything (only deductions etc. that weren't pre-filled), or in the simplest cases anything, but I still definitely know the number under the line.

I'd understand it better if automatic filing meant that the total is somehow less clear to you, but it doesn't.