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The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

realclearscience.com

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Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that this study is very specific to novice oenology students - they were too biased by the framework what they were taught - they saw red colored wine and they tried to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine a…

This is in response to the article the parent linked, not the original. In that article, professional tasters were fooled by a small temperature difference in the same exact wine. The big takeaway is if you want to truly test anything about the flavor of wine, you absolutely must remove all preconceptions. So you must control for temperature, color, knowledge of the wine vintage, what you've eaten prior, etc. A true…

Alternatively the dynamic of temperature must be included as part of knowledge of the wine, and one must allow for wines to potentially converge in taste depending on their history.

It is not dissimilar to tea in that regard where multiple preparations of a tea under different constraints of temperature or otherwise, can result in drastically different flavorings in the scope of hours. (The tea drinking practice in China known as Cha Dao leverages this fact to create a complex tea drinking experiences in an afternoon)

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#162
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading that, I'm confused about the conclusion. The wine tasters were looking for flavors, and said they found them. If they weren't there, they should have said so. The inescapable conclusion is, the supposed differences between white and red wine are imaginary. They are not in the wine, but in the taster's head. In the 'mental flow chart', the chart they use to make up words about what they're tasting .

> The inescapable conclusion is, the supposed differences between white and red wine are imaginary. You could conclude that only after blind test.

That trial was essentially blind? You couldn't tell which was the white, and which the red. Because they were both the same color.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sour Grapes is a documentary about someone who sold a bunch of counterfeit wine to elites that couldn’t tell the difference, worth a watch.

That's probably not a wholly fair characterization. Part of the takeaway is that the perpetrator had a sophisticated palate and spent a lot of time mixing already high-end (but not $thousands/bottle) wine to work out the recipes. I'm as skeptical as anyone that someone can distinguish between a $2k and $200 wine. But to someone that drinks wine daily, the difference between $6 and $60 wine (red, of similar varietal a…

There’s a scene where an actual expert tastes the fake wine and calls it garbage, the people he swindled tended to have a high view of their own palate but little formal training. And yeah by all accounts the swindler had a very sophisticated sense of taste.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article doesn't debunk Brochet's experiment. Here's what it says: "That said, important to note here is that while Brochet’s studies are often cited as definitively showing how bad wine experts are at judging wines, in this case that they can’t even tell the difference between red and white wines, that’s not what that study actually showed at all." Brochet proved that most people who are reasonably knowledgeable…

I think what Brochet study clearly displayed is that novice oenology students are too biased by the framework what they have been taught - they see red colored wine and they try to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wi…

So you think that even though the study showed that people so interested in wine that they are in training to become an expert couldn't tell the difference, that doesn't mean joe off the street can't tell a difference? I call bs.

Color white wine red and most people can't tell the difference.

Mix a few wines together and slap an ancient, expensive label on it and most of the world's top experts can't tell the difference. (as evidenced by some of the massive wine scams that have gone on for decades mostly unbeknownst to all the wine experts that buy the fakes)

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not a wholly fair characterization. Part of the takeaway is that the perpetrator had a sophisticated palate and spent a lot of time mixing already high-end (but not $thousands/bottle) wine to work out the recipes. I'm as skeptical as anyone that someone can distinguish between a $2k and $200 wine. But to someone that drinks wine daily, the difference between $6 and $60 wine (red, of similar varietal a…

There’s a scene where an actual expert tastes the fake wine and calls it garbage, the people he swindled tended to have a high view of their own palate but little formal training. And yeah by all accounts the swindler had a very sophisticated sense of taste.

IIRC that actual expert had been informed it was fake before he tasted it, so it sounded like a BS claim to me.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#166
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate." Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. No matter how long one has been tasting wine, ultimately one has to have some degree of competence to analyze and then describe what one is actually tasting. That said, I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually g…

> Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. Absolutely agreed 100%. I've been to a few organised tasting events, and I think at that level it's pretty much all pretension and style over substance. It's for the experience and the entertainment, and at that level I have no problem with it. I just wanted to provide a perspective about how it's used industrially for wholly seriou…

[deleted]

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#167
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate." Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. No matter how long one has been tasting wine, ultimately one has to have some degree of competence to analyze and then describe what one is actually tasting. That said, I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually g…

> Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. Absolutely agreed 100%. I've been to a few organised tasting events, and I think at that level it's pretty much all pretension and style over substance. It's for the experience and the entertainment, and at that level I have no problem with it. I just wanted to provide a perspective about how it's used industrially for wholly seriou…

[First] You raise many very interesting points and I've made comments about them below. In fact, there's too much of interest for me to fully address in just one reply (you'll note this long meandering reply has had to be extended into the next reply below to fit it).

It's a rare experience for me to come across someone who's done the kind of work you have. On the few occasions I have and I follow up with questions, the person usually clams up because of trade secrets or such—you know 'our chocolate is smoother because of our secret process' etc., etc., so I've never gotten to the bottom of the aspects of the subject that I've been most curious about.

I'm not a chemist but given the number of courses I've done where chemistry was one of compulsory subjects, I reckon I ought to be. ;-) Once, I added the years up that I'd studied the subject and it came to over a decade (that, of course, includes high school). If it hadn't been for considerable duplication of subject material due to the silly way courses were constructed then, by now, I ought to be expert in the subject. But alas that's not so.

Now back to your comments:

"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate."

"We used the same nomenclature and tasting training as the wine industry. It's a qualitative assessment, but there is a lot of science behind it, and the training is actually quite difficult. You actually train on specific samples with a single taste, initially very unsubtle and clearly labelled. Then to pass certification you have to do it completely blind.

Next level up you progress to subtler tastes and repeat. The really advanced people are genuinely capable of discerning very specific chemical compounds with a very high degree of accuracy.

Now let me also include my facetious and somewhat unfair comment (unfair for reasons I develop below):

"… I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually get better with experience—but ultimately one cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter how good the training."

Further down, you'll become aware that the 'silk purse/sow's ear' comment becomes very relevant.

Before I proceed I must add that decades ago one of the 'sins' of my youth was to spend a little time working in a vineyard/winery—not as a winemaker or specialist but as a general dogsbody. Nevertheless, when knowledgeable people who regularly win awards for their wines surround one, one cannot but help pick up a few valuable tips.

OK, back to the comments. All these quotes have common threads, which are, (a) about how do you calibrate the taste and olfactory processes of different individuals so their 'output' is uniform and thus useful to others, and, (b) when exposed to the same stimulus how do different individuals differ in their experience of it. We're confronted with the ancient conundrum that's as old as philosophy itself—not to mention the subject of countless philosophical dissertations—some of which I once had to study. It boils down to this: I cannot experience a given physical phenomena and accurately remember it then jump into your head to see if you/your senses experience it the same identical way that I did when I was in my own body.

Of course, there are two issues here. The first is that one's physical sensors (of taste, smell etc.) have given (nominal) sensitivities and that these differ between individuals. Moreover, they change dynamically over time and with the type and strength of the input signals (tastes). These sensors also possess bandwidth and detection thresholds in the physical sense. One experiences (directly perceives) sensory data from these senses (as say in a blind tasting, or feeling something) but that's about as good as it gets because one can have errors directly associated with perception. For instance, at one end of the spectrum you've lost your glasses and you mistake a ballpoint for a pencil, at the other extreme we've the case of the man with visual agnosia that Oliver Sacks outlined in is book The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. Then there are interpretation errors (errors of thought/mental processes), which can be caused by any number of reasons from having a vivid imagination, to schizophrenia, to reacting badly to a normal everyday stimulus because of an ongoing memory of a similar bad experience that one has had in the past.

This can quickly become a real can of worms, as things can get so inextricably intertwined and complicated. Where do plain old errors of perception end and interpretation errors actually begin? Let's take an extreme case, say someone is on LSD and they see or feel ants crawling up their arms or spot flying pigs then we have to ask what is at fault? Has the physical sensory system been corrupted and the data it's issuing is garbage, or is it that the sensory data is OK and that mental interpretation turns out junk (like a RAM fault), or is it a combination of both? The modern work/interpretation of this stuff essentially began with the sense-data constructs/notions of B. Russell and G.E. Moore et al, ca 1900, now much of it rests in the hands of neurologists.

Likely, these matters all sound rather hypothetical; the trouble is that the combined 'product' or output of these processes has real consequences in that they distort our perceptions of reality. In practice, they regularly play a large role in our day-to-day experiences. Essentially, they collectively add unwanted distortion to the output (that's to say our composite perception of an event is often in error).

For example, as a young kid I once grossly over-indulged in chocolate and made myself physically sick, afterwards I never ate another skerrick of it for over 20 years (as it made me feel sick whenever I tried ) [In hindsight, it was likely a damn good outcome.] Thus, emotion, likes, dislikes and experiences all play a huge role in interpretation.

The dynamics of all of this are seemingly overwhelming—perhaps confusing is a better word. So for the moment, let's reduce this to the simplest scenario (as per your "If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate." case. If I eat a sweet chocolate then immediately taste wine, it will taste bitter (even so a sweet sauterne); if I've just eaten a complex curry then my taste threshold changes (usually by desensitising/increasing the perceptible detection threshold), moreover, it will do so in a non-linear way (that's my experience anyway).

For example, take the case where I've not eaten (i.e.: my palate is 'clean') and (a) I dilute a sugar-water solution to the threshold to where I can just detect the sweetness, and (b) I dilute a water-denatonium (Bitrex) mixture to the point where I can just detect its foul bitterness. Then eating just about anything will alter those thresholds (usually by desensitising them but not always)—and the extent of this desensitisation will have occurred in a non-linear way. That's to say the thresholds will not desensitise to the same extent for each type of taste. If I then add a taste bias, add sweetness, bitterness, etc. into what I eat next, then the detection threshold for each chemical will change yet again. Moreover, it will again do so in a non-linear manner (this further compounds the effect).

Similarly, my taste bandwidth is reduced (here, I use the term 'bandwidth' to mean the extent to which I can differentiate varying degrees of sweetness/bitterness—essentially the range of different chemicals that I can detect for given concentrations of each). [Excuse my limited nomenclature here, my profession is IT and electronics, so it's those terms that make sense to me.]

Essentially, all of our senses have inbuilt Automatic Gain Controls, Automatic Bandwidths and Automatic Thresholds. And all of our various senses dynamically adjust or 'recalibrate' their thresholds to different detection levels depending on (a) the amount or level of the input stimulus/stimuli and (b) the intrinsic characteristics of those stimuli (type of chemical, etc.).

(Here, I've used both singular and plural deliberately, a singular stimulus will solicit a specific response, multiple stimuli will interfere with one another and thus give another different and separate response (as with intermodulation distortion in electronics, the resulting products (new tastes) of the combined responses will then be different to their singular counterparts. Furthermore, it's unlikely that the taster will be able to separate out the new taste(s) into their previous constituents—that is unless he/she does so from experience and or memory.)

Moreover, the sensitivities of our various senses and their recovery times (i.e.: the default input state after a given period of rest after in which no further stabilisation occurs) vary both over the short term (minutes/hours/days) and long-term (years/decades). We know this as we've many well documented cases. For example, there are thousands of instances where soldiers have been wounded on battlefields and their otherwise extremely severe pain is suppressed to tolerable levels—often for days afterwards. My understanding is that battle is such a terrible, emotional and cathartic experience that their perceptions of pain recalibrate as a coping mechanism. Years or even decades later when the same soldiers experience even a much lesser pain for whatever reason in normal civilian circumstances then they do so to the same extent as everyone else. Essentially, they now experience a considerably great pain for a lesser stimulatory input than they did for their battlefield injuries (sometimes this perplexes them greatly, as they worryingly perceive that they've now lost the courage and stamina that they once had.)

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#168
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate." Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. No matter how long one has been tasting wine, ultimately one has to have some degree of competence to analyze and then describe what one is actually tasting. That said, I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually g…

> Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. Absolutely agreed 100%. I've been to a few organised tasting events, and I think at that level it's pretty much all pretension and style over substance. It's for the experience and the entertainment, and at that level I have no problem with it. I just wanted to provide a perspective about how it's used industrially for wholly seriou…

[Second] Now to the crux of matter concerning those quotes. It's simplest to explain what I'm on about by way of a real example. A couple of years ago, I helped a colleague move the contents of his factory to a new location and we needed drums to store various oils and cutting lubricants from his machine tools. 20-litre ones were too small, 210ltr/44 imp. gal too big, so we settled on using 100 litre ones and the only place we could get them from was a supplier/distributor of synthetic musks, aka SMs, (as used to perfume detergents etc.) who supplied used empties. Each drum still contained a residue of between 300 to 500 ml (due to the bung lip emptying problem) and yours truly was far too curious to let interesting chemicals like these ones escape without further examination, so I saved them.

The drums still had their CAS numbers, IUPAC info/chemical formula and InChI identifiers so I knew exactly what I had. I ended up with a wide collection of about a dozen different chemicals whose structures ranged across the three most common musk types: nitro/xylene/ketone-like, macrocyclic ketones and polycyclic/galaxolide-like musks.

You can imagine what the old factory smelled like while I emptied out the drums, it stank to high heaven and you could still smell the musks way down the street (not surprising really, given that the human olfactory detection threshold for some of them is supposedly in the ng/l range). (Incidentally, whilst I can't immediately recall the exact details, the older-type nitro variety are potentially explosive, these ones were modern variants (isomers, enantiomers or whatever—I can't remember), thus that wasn't an issue—noticeably, the drums didn't have any hazard warnings to that effect.)

When I commented to my colleague to the effect that I hope we don't get complaints about the stink from those in nearby buildings he retorted "what stink?", he then stuck his nose in the open bung hole of one of the drums and said "it only smells a bit oily to me". This immediately rang alarm bells, as I was aware that he had no difficulty smelling other things.

This led me on a quest to understand more about synthetic musk chemistry and to find out why a comparatively large percentage of the population cannot smell the stuff because of minor genetic differences in their makeup (methinks that must be a problem for the marketing departments of soap powders)! A month or so later I put a small selection of the chemicals into the smallest type of Tabasco sauce bottles, 60 ml, (as a chilli eater I've lots of empties) and took them along to one of the regular social nights I attend. The group is about 20 in size and we do nothing other than wine, dine and yak BS well into the evening. Furthermore, many are rather opinionated about wine and continually argue over which wine is best on the night (of which there may be up to six or more bottles thereof). That said, I've never seen a bottle there that cost more than a low two-figure sum let alone a Bordeaux first growth! Unsurprisingly, knowing my friends, there are two chemists in the group.

Testing the musks out on this 20-something sample, I found that roughly 30% could not detect the musk odour and it included one of the chemists (somewhat to his chagrin), whilst a reasonable percentage of those who could detect it complained that the smell was so overpowering that it would put them off their food. Now that's a contrast!

This brings me back to the human calibration matter and your comment "The simple examination was tough enough for me, and that only increased my respect for the really skilled people." Absolutely, as per the highly respected cellar owner in my previous comment. So where does this leave us? Clearly human perception of odours is highly variable. This quote from an article† that I read when researching the musks sums it up reasonably well:

" Human perception of the odour environment is highly variable. People vary both in their general olfactory acuity as well as in if and how they perceive specific odours. In recent years, it has been shown that genetic differences contribute to variability in both general olfactory acuity and the perception of specific odours. Odour perception also depends on other factors such as age and gender."

This brings me back to your other points:

"At the industrial level, the tasting is also done alongside and correlated with quantitative scientific analysis."

Right, that correlation is something I want to learn more about but I'm not expecting you explain it. Knowledge of it is important to sort the crap and BS out of 'unscientific' wine tasting—and for that matter—many other tasting experiences, disagreements, arguments, etc., such as why some like truffles and others do not, or why as a kid I'd eat all green vegetables including spinach, broccoli and cabbage whilst there'd be a screaming match from a sibling when given them. Similarly, at the age of six why I stopped my mother diluting my tea with hot water after she poured it. Then, within a week of that, I demanded that she stop ruining my tea by adding milk and sugar to it—right, I've drunk it black ever since.

Coming back to the musk matter, I've had many a discussion over characteristics of various wines with my chemist friend (the one who cannot detect the musk odour) and we rarely agree, each coming to a different conclusion over one characteristic or another is best. This led me to the inevitable conclusion that his failure to detect the musk may make him more capable of detecting other types of odours than me and vice versa. I've never read any surveys or statistical correlations of the population such as those who can and can't detect musk versus their perceptions of various different wine characteristics (but then I've never done a proper search of the literature either).

Thus, I'd imagine what you say below perhaps ought to be able to enlighten us (if specifically applied to the matter):

"The lab I worked in ran each batch through GC-FID (basic stuff), headspace-sampling GC-FID (volatile aromatics), alongside a battery of additional physical and chemical analyses (too many to list here, there are at least 20, the big brewers take product quality and safety really seriously)."

…And so should this:

"And we had GCMS and LCMS systems and other more detailed tests as options on demand to test more obscure stuff like metal content (for making Marmite yeast extract where iron levels are important, apparently)." Altogether, I reckon your approach was pretty comprehensive, there's not much left to chance. It's belts and braces level stuff.

Over to you! Have I been living under a mushroom or just ill-informed, or could there actually be a complex relationship between one's ability or inability to be able to detect musk and the ability to detect or not detect other volatile aromatics that, say, are in wine and other substances? Essentially, do you know anything about this, if so is there a well-understood position or are we into new territory?

Given my experience and 'straw poll'/small sample, from my perspective there's a tiny modicum evidence that seems to suggest it. Moreover, given the enormous complexity of the matter and the complex non-linear interrelationships between all the various 'components' I'd not be surprised if there were. (As from my previous experience with other complex systems, almost inevitably new tertiary effects arise. The trouble is that one never knows when or where they'll turn up and what form they'll take—that is until they do.)

Other matters will have to wait for now.

https://bmcneurosci.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-...

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't drink coffee, and probably never will, but I remember listening to a podcast once where two coffee drinkers who derided the whole "eat coffee beans shit out by a civet" idea tried it and said it was the best coffee they had ever had. YMMV

With wine, lots of people claim to be able to taste the difference between an expensive wine and a cheap one, but as soon as you did a double-blind test, they couldn't tell them apart. I would be extremely curious to see if the civet coffee was still there if there was double-blind taste test. And sure enough, someone has done it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDXWgVr_z30 The civet coffee doesn't even come in secon…

The explanation they provided(or perhaps this was for another kind of digested coffee bean from a kind of monkey??) was that it eliminated the bitterness that comes with drinking coffee.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#170
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. I might have agreed with you 20 years ago, but I know better now. Practice describing the flavours of the wine you drink, and your flavour memory and perception will improve over time. I generally drink a glass or two every evening, and it's usually a new wine, one I've never tasted before. I've written hundreds of tasting notes. One of the most interesting things to come out of this is finding out som…

That describes exactly, the power of suggestion of perception. If it can all be explained by association triggering memory-perception (and it can, as suggested by the idea that 20 years of conditioning make it vivid) then we can reasonably conclude that there's nothing to the wine thing except that.

Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. And there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Tasting wine is like listening to a polyphonic note with different envelopes. It has extremely complex flavours that change in the mouth.

Is the taste of an apple simply the association from your memories? An orange likewise? Or do they not have a pleasurable qualia all of their own?

Have you ever tasted a cocktail made by a good bartender? Isn't it fun picking out the different flavours, and feeling how they mix together to create new sensations, not trivially reducible to the component parts?

Wine is like that. But it's not just flavours. Take tension, for example. Wines have acidity, which makes your mouth water, and red wines have tannins, which make your mouth pucker and feel dry. Many great red wines will have a good balance of acidity and tannins which seem to confuse your mouth, leaving it balanced on a midpoint of watering vs drying out. It's quite a peculiar sensation, and it makes you want to go for another sip.

Then there's wine pairing. A fun thing to try is a few pates with a couple of glasses of different wines. One wine brings out spicy notes, another herbal flavours. One pate may make a wine seem fruitier, while another more lactic, or more savoury. In many cases there's no right or wrong; the wine is another ingredient in the mouth, and it simply changes the flavour profile. More variety for your eating!

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