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Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

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Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#21

Post by ForHackernews »

reedf1 wrote: post #14

I am so conflicted about the environmental impact of Proof-Of-Work. In many ways it feels like an arbitrary energy spend - but I think criticizing cryptocurrency for it seems a little disingenuous when we don't apply the same logic to other areas. What's the environmental impact of better refresh rates on monitors? What's the environmental impact of large scale cctv systems? What's the environmental impact of western…

No other systems I know of are deliberately designed to continuously become less efficient.

That's why Bitcoin/PoW is in a different category to me: It's a Red Queen's Race where all the miners are incentivized to keep wasting more and more energy (for no greater benefit) or else risk that somebody else can execute a 51% attack.

Imagine if your email host needed to keep burning more and more energy, not to send any more emails, but because if they ever backed off, somebody else could steal your email address from you.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#22

Post by ForHackernews »

cableshaft wrote: post #17

So since bitcoin is up right now, we're just going to see nonstop attacks on the fact that it's not climate friendly with its energy usage? Feels like this is the sixth article I've seen on Hacker News in the last month. From a quick skim this article seems like it might have some good data, but it also has a bunch of loaded language in it that turns me off from wanting to read the article. "Bitcoin and other PoW coi…

None of the neutral language moves the needle. People have been pointing out for years that using more energy than all of Denmark to handle fewer transactions than a mid-sized Walmart is not a recipe for success.

There are too many bagholders, excuse me, "investors" who are financially motivated to keep pushing this stuff.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#24

Post by ForHackernews »

zyphr wrote: post #19

The locked up energy used for mining was never available to populated area's in the first place, it is exces energy. It's a bit like if you compare taking a shower in the middle of the desert with standing under a water fall and telling someone not to waste water while standing there because you consume as much water as 10000 people.

Says who? Bitcoin advocates always claim this, but never provide any compelling sources to back up this assertion.

Can you not smelt aluminium in remote areas? Can you not perform hydrolysis to generate hydrogen?

There are plenty of other good uses for electricity besides bitcoin or powering a city directly.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#25

Post by djbebs »

ForHackernews wrote: post #21
reedf1 wrote: post #14

I am so conflicted about the environmental impact of Proof-Of-Work. In many ways it feels like an arbitrary energy spend - but I think criticizing cryptocurrency for it seems a little disingenuous when we don't apply the same logic to other areas. What's the environmental impact of better refresh rates on monitors? What's the environmental impact of large scale cctv systems? What's the environmental impact of western…

No other systems I know of are deliberately designed to continuously become less efficient. That's why Bitcoin/PoW is in a different category to me: It's a Red Queen's Race where all the miners are incentivized to keep wasting more and more energy (for no greater benefit) or else risk that somebody else can execute a 51% attack. Imagine if your email host needed to keep burning more and more energy, not to send any m…

Except they are not incentivised to expend more and more energy. The amount of energy expended is a direct correlation to how important bitcoin is.

You wouldn't criticize a government for spending millions keeping ita gold reserves safe, even though it can store them just as easily in a warehouse as it can in fort knox

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#26

Post by sparsely »

zyphr wrote: post #19

The locked up energy used for mining was never available to populated area's in the first place, it is exces energy. It's a bit like if you compare taking a shower in the middle of the desert with standing under a water fall and telling someone not to waste water while standing there because you consume as much water as 10000 people.

It's true, energy markets are entirely unresponsive to supply and demand and contain no feedback loops.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#27

Post by ycombinatorrio »

cableshaft wrote: post #17

So since bitcoin is up right now, we're just going to see nonstop attacks on the fact that it's not climate friendly with its energy usage? Feels like this is the sixth article I've seen on Hacker News in the last month. From a quick skim this article seems like it might have some good data, but it also has a bunch of loaded language in it that turns me off from wanting to read the article. "Bitcoin and other PoW coi…

I saw the same too especially on HN. I suspect a non-negligible amount of competitors paying farm-content providers trying to make it a pb.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#28

Post by kyrieeschaton »

What's the energy cost of a financial sector that takes a ~3% cut of all retail transactions, puts up physical bank branches to manage money, empowers a federal reserve to manage the value of currency with more or less competency... Comparing BTC energy costs to some mythical world where we just burn free lunches for heat is not honest.

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#29

Post by [deleted] »

ForHackernews wrote: post #21
reedf1 wrote: post #14

I am so conflicted about the environmental impact of Proof-Of-Work. In many ways it feels like an arbitrary energy spend - but I think criticizing cryptocurrency for it seems a little disingenuous when we don't apply the same logic to other areas. What's the environmental impact of better refresh rates on monitors? What's the environmental impact of large scale cctv systems? What's the environmental impact of western…

No other systems I know of are deliberately designed to continuously become less efficient. That's why Bitcoin/PoW is in a different category to me: It's a Red Queen's Race where all the miners are incentivized to keep wasting more and more energy (for no greater benefit) or else risk that somebody else can execute a 51% attack. Imagine if your email host needed to keep burning more and more energy, not to send any m…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin and other PoW coins are an ESG nightmare

#30

Post by dsukhin »

It's worth comparing Bitcoin's proof of work to other schemes of maintaining currency value to understand this in a relative sense. The Military Industrial Complex which arguably is the mechanism by which the dollar maintains its position as the global reserve currency puts out 152MtCO2/yr [1].

Without making any judgement on if this ratio is reasonable: this is 3-5x more than BTC POW but arguably also contains other negative externalities like loss of life, etc.

[1] https://earther.gizmodo.com/groundbreaking-report-gives-us-a...

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