Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power • Hacker News Board

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#121

Post by dash2 » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:33 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #68

nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

>>> But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? If "journalism" is entertainment, but nobody wants to pay for it, then it has no use and we should let it die. If it's an important resource required by our society, (so that we are not ignorant of whats going on in our neighborhood and world), then it's not entertainment, it's an essential service, and it should be publicly funded like our other…

The vast majority of essential services (e.g. food, housing) are not publicly funded, so the analogy doesn't really work. Also, there are obvious reasons why government-funded news might have problems, if its essential service involves investigating the government.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#122

Post by watwut » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

rHiBWMawzT wrote: post #100

rayiner wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of large firms (one which has long represented Philip Morris) aligned themselves with the Resistance from the outset. This was long before the election fraud stuff.

Do you mean the Resistance to Donald Trump or is that a reference to something else? It's their right to do that I guess, but I personally believe strongly in the Constitutional rights we have even if it is unpopular or kitschy to say that. I thought lawyers were people who believed strongly in fighting for their clients' civil rights even if they despise their clients because they think the rights matter. Without th…

> I thought lawyers were people who believed strongly in fighting for their clients' civil rights even if they despise their clients because they think the rights matter.

Afaik, this particular thing does not require you to not have political opinions. And in particular if some party or politician seem to trample all over civil rights or legal defenses, you might argue against him or align yourself with his opponents.

Also, if your motivation if pure civil rights, you wont attempt to trample civil rights of opponents of your client in the process. As in, you will defend your client as vigorously as possible, while keeping defense squicky clean. And you wont try to smear their victims etc. And you will defend all kinds of clients, not just nazi, but also their victims once in a while.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#123

Post by paganel » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:42 AM UTC

Powerful people do in fact need the press, best example is Bezos who has used the Washington Post for attacking Trump (one of his enemies). I'm pretty sure any campaign for unionization at Amazon warehouses would also be short-lived.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#124

Post by watwut » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #37

Barrin92 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest to read Hunter S. Thompson's obituary on Nixon https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-was-... "It was all gibberish, of course. Nixon was no more a Saint than he was a Great President. He was more like Sammy Glick than Winston Churchill. He was a cheap crook and a merciless war criminal who bombed more people to death in Laos and Cambodia than the U.S. Army lost in all of World War II, an…

Here's Matt Taibbi's writings on White Fragility : https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility It's plenty opinionated. But it's interesting because Matt Taibbi is not a Republican, in the same way that Reason (not Democrats) is interesting when it criticizes Republican ideas. CNN saying anything about Trump or Fox News saying anything about Biden is by comparison of insignificant (if not negative) value, becaus…

Matt Taibbi's is however very consistenly against sjw/racial justice advocetes/feminists or what have you.

This is not Taibbi arguing against own, it is Taibbi arguing against his long term ennemies.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#125

Post by notahacker » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:45 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #72

nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

> But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? The decentralized model. Aka everybody has to think for themselves, like responsible grown ups are supposed to do. The fact that some people think a central authority of truth is necessary is terribly sad.

The media is already decentralized; there are many news sources and they often do not entirely agree with each other. People understandably are keen to prioritise the accounts of outlets they believe to be generally reliable over those they don't. Those considered most reliable fulfil the informal role of "arbiter of truth" for their audiences.

I don't think further decentralizing so each individual has to carry out original research with primary sources to obtain any sort of picture of what happened in the world yesterday would represent a feasible improvement, and I suspect the conclusions people would draw instead of doing that research would be [even] worse.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#126

Post by drtillberg » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:46 AM UTC

axguscbklp wrote: post #27

Start acting more like investigators of truth rather than as promoters of ideology, start acting more like free thinkers and less like thought police, start speaking truth to power more and being in bed with power less, and maybe more people will trust you.

That doesn't work. Now and always an independent investigator of truth will be a lone voice in a wilderness targeted by all warring dogmatic factions. Witness NYT seeking to draw HN to the fray with Saturday's piece about SSC.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#127

Post by watwut » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:47 AM UTC

undefined1 wrote: post #2

"All I know is that there is only one way the press maintains its power in society: by metaphorically putting the heads of powerful people on pikes." this is what just happened with Scott Alexander. they tried to put his head on a pike, because he's a high value node in the tech community that's eroding the power of the legacy press.

I read the article. There was like a little bit of criticism in article that contains both positive and negative claims. And everyone frankly overreacts to it. It is absolutely fair to disagree or argue against what was written, but it was not hit piece by any reasonable definition.

And the first article about him also did not done anything that would be objectionable.

And frankly, I have seen way more aggressive writing from journalists who are praised here as truth tellers.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#128

Post by jansan » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

qwantim1 wrote: post #28

ahepp wrote: post #16

>As journalists, we all view this as a horrifying assault on the public’s right to know, and on our own status as brave defenders of the public good. And that is all true, for what it’s worth. But this is about power. We need to take some back, lest the rich and powerful run away from one of the last forces restraining them. It's interesting that they seem to consider themselves the only ones with pure hearts. I'm no…

The scary part of journalism is when it’s about activism vs. the truth. Activists can lie if the truth isn’t important. Lying for ratings, though, is also very bad. Activists lying for both activist causes and ratings is extremely bad.

The same is true for science. Just recently there was an article that claimed that global warming is responsible for the corona pandemic. What a load of bullshit, and the "scientists" probably knew it very well.

Virologists are getting sponsored by the pharma industry, climate researchers are green warriors (while at the same time being funded by insurance companies), social scientists going completely off the rails turning universities into ideological war zones. These are interesting times, we have to be careful.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#129

Post by lordgrenville » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:54 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #14

phkahler wrote: post #6

>> They felt that way because papers like the Post could offer the carrot of great exposure to those who needed it, but also, always, the stick of negative coverage to those who spurned them. There is nothing devious or ignoble about this; a powerful press, for all its flaws, is good for democracy No, doing hit pieces on anyone is a flagrant exercise of power that deserves no respect and destroys the credibility of t…

I'd suggest to read Hunter S. Thompson's obituary on Nixon https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1994/07/he-was-... "It was all gibberish, of course. Nixon was no more a Saint than he was a Great President. He was more like Sammy Glick than Winston Churchill. He was a cheap crook and a merciless war criminal who bombed more people to death in Laos and Cambodia than the U.S. Army lost in all of World War II, an…

> Facts you can find on Wikipedia or in the phone book

No no no! The facts on Wikipedia are supposed to be dug up by journalists!

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#130

Post by coldtea » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 11:57 AM UTC

jtvjan wrote: post #116

nexthash wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my biggest fear about the media. If they don't come clean and reclaim their integrity (this goes for both left and right outlets), the public will reject them. Discourse will move to blogs, podcasts, private networks, etc. In the process, the laws and protections for journalism will be weathered and may be abolished altogether (who needs those pompous journalists, right?). Then we'll be no better than a propa…

In the first paragraph, you argue for freedom of expression. Then, at the end of the second paragraph, you call for regulation against it. Huh?!

Many want "freedom of expression" only for arbiters of correct expression (the one they agree with)...