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Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

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Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#61

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dragonwriter wrote: post #48
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's Matt Taibbi's writings on White Fragility : https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility It's plenty opinionated. But it's interesting because Matt Taibbi is not a Republican, in the same way that Reason (not Democrats) is interesting when it criticizes Republican ideas. CNN saying anything about Trump or Fox News saying anything about Biden is by comparison of insignificant (if not negative) value, becaus…

> It's very opinionated. But it's interesting because Matt Taibbi is not a Republican, in the same way that Reason (not Democrats) is interesting when it criticizes Republicans. Well, except Reason is a platform with a right-libertarian that is generally supportive of similar things to the Republican Party and favorable to Republicans, whereas Taibbi, however leftist his editorial position might be, is generally not…

> Well, except Reason is a platform with a right-libertarian that is generally supportive of similar things to the Republican Party and favorable to Republicans

That they agree with Republicans on many things is the point. But then they criticize the Republican position on drug legalization, mass surveillance, foreign wars, various proposals to spend tax money etc., which are correspondingly interesting because they're unlikely to be motivated by partisan animosity.

> whereas Taibbi, however leftist his editorial position might be, is generally not aligned with Democratic policies or politicians and spends disproportionate time targeting them

If he was 100.0% aligned with Democratic policies or politicians then he would be CNN or MSNBC and not be a suitable example.

> often presenting the exact same arguments are are being used by the Right on the exact same issues

Being the same argument isn't a problem, any more than Reason and Democrats using the same arguments against the War in Iraq. The interesting thing, and the thing that makes it a useful filter, is when it comes from someone not uniformly aligned with the opposing party, because it makes partisanship a less likely motive.

Also, are you criticizing the principle or the example? Would you like to provide your own example of some leftist criticism of the left? How about Greenwald or Chomsky?

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#62

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

> what will replace the media as an arbiter of independent information and truth

Lament of the Catholic Church during the Reformation: Who will replace the Church as the arbiter of truth.

Maybe it is best that we not have people and institutions that claim to be the “arbiter of truth.”

Anything that gives power to the people is messy. Democracy is messy and the elite wondered how people would be able to rule themselves without an absolute monarch telling them what to do. Now we have the journalistic elite wondering how the people will be able to figure out truth without the journalist high priesthood telling them what truth is.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#63

Post by nexthash »

analog31 wrote: post #60
nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

>>> But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? A strongman. An idea that I attribute to Imre Lakatos, is that if you strip people of the ability to debate and discern facts, you create a power vacuum that can only be filled by those who can act in the absence of debate and facts, notably thugs and tyrants. I believe this is the actual motivation behind the "war on truth" and the flood of misi…

This is my biggest fear about the media. If they don't come clean and reclaim their integrity (this goes for both left and right outlets), the public will reject them. Discourse will move to blogs, podcasts, private networks, etc. In the process, the laws and protections for journalism will be weathered and may be abolished altogether (who needs those pompous journalists, right?). Then we'll be no better than a propaganda state, where you can be jailed or sued for publishing a perspective that offends or exposes someone.

This is obviously a worst-case scenario, but I think that to prevent anything similar from happening Americans need to step up and pressure their news outlets to do better, and for social media platforms to be choked with regulation until they start preventing manipulative shit from spreading.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#64

Post by fartcannon »

conradev wrote: post #54
young_unixer wrote: post #29

> As journalists, we all view this as a horrifying assault on the public’s right to know, and on our own status as brave defenders of the public good. And that is all true, for what it’s worth. But this is about power. We need to take some back, lest the rich and powerful run away from one of the last forces restraining them. I don't want the same arrogant, self-unaware journalist that pushes pernicious narratives to…

I’d encourage some HN commenters to do the same, funnily enough Narratives can be dangerous, pernicious or not. For example, on every article about a big tech company, regardless of the facts at play, people will happily comment why they think it contributes to their narrative of that big company trying to grab power. I’m frustrated more when journalists do it, though, because they have more reach. For example: the W…

If big tech is experiencing a lack of trust from their cannon fodder, perhaps it's their own doing?

People found out what they were doing and got angry. As if the time line excuses the behaviour. At best, it wasn't properly communicated through the right channels with the proper context so that everyone who used it understood the ramifications when it first happened and that just makes it worse.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#65

Post by Ericson2314 »

nverno wrote: post #39
young_unixer wrote: post #29

> As journalists, we all view this as a horrifying assault on the public’s right to know, and on our own status as brave defenders of the public good. And that is all true, for what it’s worth. But this is about power. We need to take some back, lest the rich and powerful run away from one of the last forces restraining them. I don't want the same arrogant, self-unaware journalist that pushes pernicious narratives to…

The self-righteous arrogance of this author is comical.

The tone was not that of an outrage juicer opinion piece to me. Rather it was that of someone finally peeling off the sugar coating in exasperation. I'm OK with that.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#66

Post by nexthash »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #62
nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

> what will replace the media as an arbiter of independent information and truth Lament of the Catholic Church during the Reformation: Who will replace the Church as the arbiter of truth. Maybe it is best that we not have people and institutions that claim to be the “arbiter of truth.” Anything that gives power to the people is messy. Democracy is messy and the elite wondered how people would be able to rule themselv…

The Catholic Church pivoted from being a policy maker to a spiritual leader for billions. Maybe journalism can do the same. Now that everybody has a voice and network to distribute that voice, journalism can shift from being the chief reliable information source to the role of a thought leader and promoter of the highest quality public discourse.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#68

Post by jay_kyburz »

nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

>>> But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth?

If "journalism" is entertainment, but nobody wants to pay for it, then it has no use and we should let it die.

If it's an important resource required by our society, (so that we are not ignorant of whats going on in our neighborhood and world), then it's not entertainment, it's an essential service, and it should be publicly funded like our other essential services.

As we transition to publicly funded "news" (things that happened) we can examine the various formats, and design them to to be easy to query and verify.

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#69

Post by dang »

mapgrep wrote: post #52
young_unixer wrote: post #29

> As journalists, we all view this as a horrifying assault on the public’s right to know, and on our own status as brave defenders of the public good. And that is all true, for what it’s worth. But this is about power. We need to take some back, lest the rich and powerful run away from one of the last forces restraining them. I don't want the same arrogant, self-unaware journalist that pushes pernicious narratives to…

Since you’re defaming Hamilton Nolan from a position of anonymity, be specific. Who did he dox? This is a total lie. And it’s the top rated comment. And you have the gall to complain about the press. dang does nothing. The community upvotes you. You hold yourself to not ONE TENTH of the standard you hold the news media you so despise. Your comments are as buggy as your industry’s infamously shitty software. You are a…

Yikes, that escalated like the Ackermann function. Please don't post like this to HN—it's clearly not in the spirit of the site, regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. You can make your substantive points thoughtfully, so please do that instead.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Journalism, particularly at the highest level, is about raw power

#70

Post by jariel »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #62
nexthash wrote: post #57

A lot of people here are arguing that mainstream media had it coming for them because of bias, arrogance, pushing an agenda, etc. But I want to ask all of you: what replaces it as arbiter of truth? For all of the media's problems and imperfections, they have acted as a quasi-independent institution holding other powerful institutions and individuals in society in check. They have focused popular attention where it wa…

> what will replace the media as an arbiter of independent information and truth Lament of the Catholic Church during the Reformation: Who will replace the Church as the arbiter of truth. Maybe it is best that we not have people and institutions that claim to be the “arbiter of truth.” Anything that gives power to the people is messy. Democracy is messy and the elite wondered how people would be able to rule themselv…

Like the commenter above indicated, it does not work that way.

'The Press' is already a structure of independence and decentralization.

Without integrity in those systems, someone will come along and dictate the Truth.

15% QAnon, 35% Trump (those willing to go along even if they don't fully agree), and then the rest are compelled when the President orders the press to communicate his words, verbatim, without criticism etc..

Twitter does not actually give power to the people, or the Truth - it concentrates power in the hands of those who have the most popular Truth.

But yes, the press needs to be less biased, but that's also partly our fault.

We don't read the less biased news, unfortunately, we like tabloids and click bait.

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