How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive • Hacker News Board

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#91

Post by cpursley » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 12:58 AM UTC

wyre wrote: post #39

fatsdomino001 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system.

Advancements in technology lifts people out of poverty. There is no proof these advancements in tech would not have realized without capitalism. If anything China and the USSR turning their agrarian societies into world powers in the course of a few decades says otherwise. Whether or not the authoritarianism needed to accomplish this is worthwhile is another discussion. That said it is theoretically possible to achie…

The late USSR frequently had to import its own grain and other food stuffs as it could not produce enough; it's one of the reasons USSR failed. And in the early USSR millions of people literally starved to death (holdimor). Today, despite all it's issues, modern capitalist (more or less) Russia is the largest wheat producer in the world. Not sure about China.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#92

Post by eyelidlessness » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #10

This is going to sound egotistical, but it's not intended that way, just the experience of your average prole. The times that I have been the most successful, most motivated, most driven, most productive, and most useful, in study, career, relationships, and life, have tracked exactly with periods in which I've gotten out what I've put in. When I started my career and a company took a chance on me - we absolutely kil…

I think the thing you’re missing, probably because of whatever motivated you to use “prole” without irony, is you’re not a prole and don’t experience the economic impact of being inherently undervalued. People who never experience compensation resembling what they “put in” and are constantly navigating burnout.

It’s not egotistical it’s just a matter of perspective. Most people don’t get to decide or don’t have enough energy to decide to “get mine” even if they knew where to begin.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#93

Post by Gene_Parmesan » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

foogazi wrote: post #66

diob wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still early in my career (around 32, 8 years in), and I can heavily relate to what you said at the beginning. The company I work for recently got acquired and the entire culture changed to one of "fuck the engineers, only contracts matter, engineers are just butts in seats, the more the better (quality not required)". My boss is constantly turned down when he tries to advocate for me, or say that I deserve a slig…

Shit happens, why are you still there?

When you are working for a good company that values you, and embedded in a good team that also values you, there is a bonding that occurs that goes deeper than your average commercial exchange. If you have never been in this position, you may not understand the emotional difficulties involved in watching such a place slowly burn to the ground. Old timers usually still feel loyalty to those of their coworkers who are still sticking around; if the poster's boss is a good leader and strong advocate for them, which it sounds like they are, this can be even harder. People build a lot of loyalty towards good leaders.

Sure, it's emotional stuff, and the purely rational actor would dip without question. But having emotions is healthy and normal, even if it means they sometimes lead you to somewhat suboptimal situations. Of course, it can reach a point where people get locked in out of fear of the unknown, just like bad relationships. But it's rarely as easy as just saying "Okay, time to leave."

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#94

Post by wongarsu » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #79

wongarsu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something East-Germans are lamenting about when comparing East-Germany to West-Germany. Of course some of this self-serving behaviour exists everywhere, but as a society or even community you can put a focus on the "we" or on the "me". Our society happens to mostly stress the "me" part, which leads to the outcomes you describe.

The basis of capitalism is that under most circumstances, focusing on “me” also produces the best outcomes for “us”. And a pure focus on “us” can lead to poorer outcomes as there is no immediate reward for the person doing the work.

The economist would say all you need is a proper set of incentives to ensure that what's best for the individual is best for the community. The AI-safety researcher would say that every set of incentives you find will have loopholes, and those will be exploited.

I'm not claiming capitalism doesn't work (at least for many definitions of capitalism, and work), but we should acknowledge its drawbacks, acknowledge strengths of other systems that otherwise failed, and hope to find a better model that has similar advantages with fewer of the drawbacks.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#95

Post by tjalfi » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

diob wrote: post #30

esotericn wrote: post #10

This is going to sound egotistical, but it's not intended that way, just the experience of your average prole. The times that I have been the most successful, most motivated, most driven, most productive, and most useful, in study, career, relationships, and life, have tracked exactly with periods in which I've gotten out what I've put in. When I started my career and a company took a chance on me - we absolutely kil…

I'm still early in my career (around 32, 8 years in), and I can heavily relate to what you said at the beginning. The company I work for recently got acquired and the entire culture changed to one of "fuck the engineers, only contracts matter, engineers are just butts in seats, the more the better (quality not required)". My boss is constantly turned down when he tries to advocate for me, or say that I deserve a slig…

That reminds me of a job I had in the early 2000s.

I was there 9 months and at the end I ranked 5th in the company for seniority.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#96

Post by true_religion » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #20

_qulr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also a surprising number of people in the US believe that poverty is a moral failure of some sort. Yep, there's a marriage in the US between business and religion that seems contradictory until you realize that these people believe the "invisible hand" of the market is God.

> that these people Who? I’ve never met anyone who believes that.

I think he may be referencing how Calvonist faiths believed that God's grace manifested as good fortune, therefore if you were rich you were likely blessed by God.

I don't know how much of that theory remains true with American protestants today.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#97

Post by socialdemocrat » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

bko wrote: post #7

> The researchers then monitored the workers' on-the-job performance, comparing them to a group of workers that didn't get paid upfront. The researchers find that the workers who were paid upfront were significantly more productive, making 6.2% more plates per hour. The biggest effect was seen with the poorest workers. Even more, the plates they made were less likely to be marred by mistakes, indicating they were mor…

The conclusions are pretty sound IMHO because they match so well other studies of this kind. E.g. when doing IQ tests on people who are poor part of the year and much better off the other half of the year, once can see a 14 point difference in score. That is quite profound.

Basically the stress of poverty pulls people down in every possible way. It is not just in terms of producing plates, but also in your ability to perform mental tasks.

There are also other studies that show that people who are paid below what they feel they are worth, will perform less well. Basically human productivity seems to work in thresholds. If you are above the threshold, then increases in salary does not improve your performance. Being paid a million or 2 million makes little difference.

But if you are getting way below what you seem descent and normal for the type of work you are doing or you feel unfairly compensated relative to other workers, then performance has been shown to typically lag.

Basically there is a price to pay when engaging in unfairness. It affects people. We can even find the same results within animals. An animal can be fine eating one kind of food, but when that animal learns that that a peer is getting significantly better food, it will often get very upset, angry and stressed.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#98

Post by chillfox » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #70

paulryanrogers wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is mask wearing, temporary social distancing, and vaccination asking too much from the individual to sustain the weakest and most vulnerable in society?

Not at all. Those are the most minor, trivial aspects of what has happened over the last year in the UK, and what continues to happen as we speak. How about we make a trade. I'll wear a mask in situations where others are concerned, take my vaccine, and you may distance from me as much as you'd like. You know, like I am and have been doing for eleven months now. In return - I want my life back. Let's reinstate the de…

Ah, the UK, It has been interesting to watch your "circus" from the other side of the planet.

IMO, the UK handled Covid exceptionally poorly by repeatedly being afraid to act until it was too late.

Here in Australia (Specifically the Northern Territory) we locked down hard early on while we had around 20 cases, I think it was for 2 months, after which no further lock downs have been required. Quarantine for travelers has prevented Covid getting in to the community. Basically due to how we have handled it life is pretty much the same as before Covid here, restaurants are open, the shopping mall is packed and the only thing we had to give up was 2 months and international holidays.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#99

Post by esotericn » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #92

esotericn wrote: post #10

This is going to sound egotistical, but it's not intended that way, just the experience of your average prole. The times that I have been the most successful, most motivated, most driven, most productive, and most useful, in study, career, relationships, and life, have tracked exactly with periods in which I've gotten out what I've put in. When I started my career and a company took a chance on me - we absolutely kil…

I think the thing you’re missing, probably because of whatever motivated you to use “prole” without irony, is you’re not a prole and don’t experience the economic impact of being inherently undervalued. People who never experience compensation resembling what they “put in” and are constantly navigating burnout. It’s not egotistical it’s just a matter of perspective. Most people don’t get to decide or don’t have enoug…

You are absolutely right on every point.

There was a time, when I was.

And I've been blindingly lucky to crawl, bit by bit, out of that.

But I still identify with that, because precisely the same societal decisions that fuck me, are the ones that fuck them too.

I owe them something. They're still struggling.

I don't owe the rest of society anything at all.

Re: How Poverty Makes Workers Less Productive

#100

Post by pdimitar » Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #89

nextos wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The last year has been a period in which I've gone from wanting to take part in society, work on big problems like climate change, sacrifice for the greater good, donate my time and money [...] This might be the biggest problem human race has to solve. How to encourage and reward good behavior for the greater good. Economists would say it's a problem on how to price in externalities. It doesn't matter. I see it eve…

Having kids was a huge perspective shift towards doing my part & seeing the inherent value in other people. No silver bullet, of course, as plenty of people have kids yet act only for their own self interest. But it is interesting to wonder if decreased birth rates could be both a symptom and cause of decreasing collectivism.

I am not sure where you're living but where I am birth rates are declining because people literally cannot guarantee they'll have money to feed their kids.

Not a very glorious or elaborate response, granted, but Occam's Razor must never be ignored.

"Decreasing collectivism" is only stemming from "every man for himself" because the economy is objectively getting worse and worse for most folks out there. It's a very logical outcome.