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The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

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Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#101
I'd like to point out a number of serious methodological issues with this study.

1. They tested whether the dye was tasteless on students who were not wine students, just students pulled off of the agricultural school campus. This study basically says "Group A, who aren't trained in tasting, say that there's no taste. However, Group B, trained in tasting, report a difference." (More on that "difference" below.)

2. They tested the dye as being tasteless when mixed with wine. If it's truly tasteless they should do the same test with water. I suspect they don't because it does have a taste, more in this below.

3. Even in their experiment on untrained students trying to show that it is "tasteless," the wine containing dye was in fact identified as tasting different 120/300 times (expected value 100/300 if there was no difference in taste). This is not enough evidence to show definitively whether the dye is tasteless or not. The raw evidence reported actually indicates that it is more likely to have a taste than to not have a taste.

4. The way that they asked the wine students to compare the wines is convoluted - overly complicated, as if to obscure the truth. The wine students were asked to compare wines by sorting each feature as belonging more to Wine A versus Wine B. So, if neither wine particularly has some feature, you would still be forced to assign the feature to one of the two wines. The only two wine comparisons done were true white wine versus true red wine, and then true white wine versus white wine dyed to look red. They never actually do a comparison of the white wine dyed to look red compared to true red wine, which would be the most informative comparison.

I will transition here from methodological issues with this study to my opinion on this study.

This study appears to have been designed with a specific outcome in mind, regardless of the underlying truth about people's ability to taste wine. The conclusions stated in the study are not supported by the evidence actually collected in the study. The best thing I can say for this paper is that they report their methods clearly enough for someone to be able to see that they are heavily flawed.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#102
John Cleese did a program about this, 20 years ago.

https://youtu.be/sHnz6KoYw_A

(TL;DR - He does the experiment at 16:30)

I took a wine class in college (my school had a Hotel/Restaurant Management program, and offered the class as a General Ed elective). Those classes are focused on the geography of the different wine regions and taught nothing about how to train your palate. And no one ever talks about the idea of Qualia and how that can be different for different people.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#103
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to push back on one of your central tenets. > f they are tasting it blind ... their taste is accurate It would be more accurate to say the tasting would be less subjective. I don’t think “accurate” is a good word - people all taste things differently due to different taste buds and psychological wirings. But even then, removing the label doesn’t mean people taste anything objectively. They are bringing in thei…

I think you're muddling two meanings of the word taste: the aesthetic sense, vs the chemical detection system of your mouth and nose. The latter is not subjective. The experience might be, the qualia might be, and it will change with training and priming, but the raw detection is what the parent is talking about and that is objective.

The first part of my reply could have been better. I should have said "unbiased" rather than "accurate".

The training part is very much about learning to identify specific chemicals, or groups of chemicals. That absolutely is raw detection, as you say. Let me provide some examples. For the "level 1" training, the most basic stuff, samples would be things like: plain water, acid (very dilute sulphuric acid), alkali (very dilute sodium hydroxide), metal (copper and nickel metal coins in a bottle of water), rubber (rubber tubing cut up in a bottle of water), salt, sugar and a few others I've forgotten (this was 22 years ago), maybe some other major categories like aldehydes. Just for the record, you don't actually drink any of that stuff down, it's tasting only and its very dilute! When the solutions are all clear, being able to identify each blind from some anonymised samples is surprisingly difficult, especially when diluted so it's more subtle. But it's absolutely possible with practice.

The higher levels are all more subtle things like many different flavour compounds. For wine and beer, almost exclusively aromatic hydrocarbons, along with esters and other flavour compounds. I never did this but it's the same process, but it's much more difficult. Instead of under 10, you have an industry-standard reference set of IIRC around 60 compounds, and you have to be able to identify each and every one blind when diluted in isolation. And obviously in a drink you have to be able to identify them all individually in combination as well. This is the part that takes the most time and effort to master. And it's these people that I wouldn't question too much regarding their skills, because they actually had to pass objective assessments to demonstrate those skills. This is really hard!

This is why I'm a little disappointed that the original article mentioned using students. They would be unlikely to have achieved that level of competence. It takes many months, if not years, of regular practice to get to that level. I spent a year doing the basic training and then continual daily testing and monthly assessments, and while I still class myself as being at a very basic level, I'd still likely have more practical experience than them.

Regarding subjectivity and the "experience" of taste, that's absolutely taken on board as well. But it's a separate question. For where I worked, every product had a spec sheet, mostly physical and chemical properties but also a taste profile. The professional tasters could make sure it met that profile exactly. The rest of us just made sure it looked and tasted as a consumer would expect it to.

For those who are wondering about why those specific "level 1" tastes, they aren't random and they are actually serving an additional purpose. Those are to also pick up on product contamination. Metal and rubber from storage tanks and pipework. Acid and alkali from cleaning agents and coolant. I actually had to check for the latter once when we had a potential set of hairline cracks in a tank suspected of leaching coolant [in beverage production, they use very concentrated KCl since it's non-toxic if it leaks, but at pH14 it's nasty stuff].

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#104
post #77

> In a sneaky study, Brochet dyed a white wine red and gave it to 54 oenology (wine science) students. The supposedly expert panel overwhelmingly described the beverage like they would a red wine. They were completely fooled. I don't understand. Why would anyone think of a student as an expert? I'm not saying that oenologists aren't full of it. I'm saying that this study doesn't prove what this article claims it does…

I think that raises questions about the quality of the wine more than about anything else. I'm more of a beer guy but I can easily tell white from red wine. Both taste and aftertaste are very different.

You probably can't.

You probably can make a difference between a red wine you are familiar with with a white wine you are also familiar with. Both served the usual way.

Besides the color, red and white wines are typically served at a different temperature (that alone change things completely) and with different dishes. So of course, make all parameters different and they are going to taste different.

I can usually make the difference pretty easily but I drank some white wines that I definitely would have thought were red if blind. But that's typically wine made to be paired with the main course and served at a higher temperature than usual.

And sure, some wines are unmistakable. If a wine is loaded in tanins, it is most likely deep red and the taste is obvious. The opposite is not that easy.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#105
post #77

> In a sneaky study, Brochet dyed a white wine red and gave it to 54 oenology (wine science) students. The supposedly expert panel overwhelmingly described the beverage like they would a red wine. They were completely fooled. I don't understand. Why would anyone think of a student as an expert? I'm not saying that oenologists aren't full of it. I'm saying that this study doesn't prove what this article claims it does…

I think that raises questions about the quality of the wine more than about anything else. I'm more of a beer guy but I can easily tell white from red wine. Both taste and aftertaste are very different.

With respect, and without any particular knowledge of your experiences, I would suggest that your impression of "red" and "white" wine is shaped by very typical examples of both.

There is an incredibly broad array of flavor, mouth feel, aromas, etc., in both red and white wine and while you and I might very reliably discern a Napa Chardonnay from an Argentine Malbec there are many white and red wines that are well off the spectrum of what we think of as "red" and "white" wines.

I have done a lot of wine tasting all over the world and I am certain you could fool me with regard to red vs. white - if you chose interesting and unconventional examples ...

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#106
post #82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists: We took a bunch of people who claim they can tell red wine from white wine based on taste, and successfully fooled most of them with food coloring. Internet commenter reading the study: I can definitely tell red wine from white wine based on taste.

Any Spanish person who claims they cannot tell red from white wine is probably a teetotaller. However you can buy extremely good wine for a few € here, which leads me to think these people may have been served some watered down stuff for budget reasons.

Until you do a blind taste test on yourself, you don't know that you can tell.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#107

I remember drinking crystal pepsi back in the day and it being a total mind f*ck. A few times I swore I was drinking 7up. So I would like to pile on wine experts here but I don’t think this study proves they are idiots.

It didn't actually taste quite the same as normal Pepsi though, right? The desire to make it transparent necessitated removing the caramel colour, which also affected flavour. It also lacked caffeine, which is a pretty noticeable flavouring too.

I’m not sure, you might be right...or it might have tasted exactly the same but people thought it tasted different due to the visual effect.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#108
post #44

I used to make a living as a mastering engineer, where the job description is to make many tiny changes near or even beyond the threshold of perception, which when summed may add up to a perceptible whole. How to do this? It's simple: isolate and magnify. Zoom in to where your senses become reliable, make a change informed by your knowledge and experience which you predict will be beneficial, then zoom out. You don't…

>Even if you might be wrong about the wine or the Strad, you know for absolute certain whether it is making you happy!

I also know for absolute certain that I can't afford expensive wine and that there are people who look down at me because the wine I drink shows I have an "unrefined palate".

Normally the concept of "elitism" is hogwash, but this is a pretty clear-cut example. Expensive wine serves to make one seem refined and worldly. It enables rich people to pretend they are more cultured, more intelligent, and just plain better than the plebs because they think they have the taste to appreciate a $500 bottle of wine.

Expensive wine is a tool of oppression. I actually don't think that's hyperbole. It is a small tool that doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as the prisons or the war on drugs or Fox News, but it has the same effect.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#109

Wine tasting is an art of deduction. The first step of any wine tasting is to look at the color, rim variation, legs, etc. From there, you take account the smell and taste. At a professional level, this is always done in a particular order to help narrow down possible characteristics for the next step. If you change the color of the wine, you'll send the wine taster down a completely different mental flow chart. The…

Reading that, I'm confused about the conclusion. The wine tasters were looking for flavors, and said they found them. If they weren't there, they should have said so. The inescapable conclusion is, the supposed differences between white and red wine are imaginary. They are not in the wine, but in the taster's head. In the 'mental flow chart', the chart they use to make up words about what they're tasting .

> The inescapable conclusion is, the supposed differences between white and red wine are imaginary.

The problem is that white/red is a very large grouping of wine. There are very light reds with low tannins that could be hard to tell particularly if served at room temp. There are some robust white wines that fall into this same overlap. In general, red vs. white is normally pretty easy assuming typical red and white wine.

Within these large groupings of white/red there are also other trick wines. Reds where the grape seems like a different grape due the region or wine process. Dry Rieslings are often tricky because most people assume sweet. So non-expert tasters being tricked by trick wines is not really an interesting find.

The problem for most people with wine tasting is it's hard to do it in a way to learn. It's not enough to buy a bottle once/week. In one trip to France, I tasted 100+ wines over a 2 week period. Only when you have wines side by side, day after day do you really start to learn. Sommeliers taste 1000s of wines over many years, taking notes and actively working to learn the flavors.

Re: The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts (2014)

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I’ve found is that the difference between an $30 bottle of wine and a $8 bottle isn’t necessarily quality, it’s consistency: buying the same $8 bottle of wine 10 times can result in five great bottles and five so-so bottles, with a $30+ bottle, it’s more like 1% of the time you get a bad bottle. So, when I’m giving a present or planning a party, I tend to gravitate to the more expensive bottles because it makes…

Buying into the mid-range is fine. It's what I do with beer a tequila. Buying the $200 bottles is where I question the logic. Even the expert tasters struggle to differentiate between a good $20-30 bottle and a $400 bottle in double blind tests. I don't drink Sanka or Coors, I just use good coffee beans and drink good local beer. I don't spend $200 on exotic coffee beans feral cats have shit out. The only reason I pu…

I don't drink coffee, and probably never will, but I remember listening to a podcast once where two coffee drinkers who derided the whole "eat coffee beans shit out by a civet" idea tried it and said it was the best coffee they had ever had. YMMV
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