School superintendent requests school be turned into prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#61

Post by protomyth » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:33 PM UTC

dhume wrote: post #54

protomyth wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public sector teachers make more than private sector teachers. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp

Ever wonder why the private school teachers are content with their lower salary? Public sector teachers have to deal with all of the problematic students that private schools can remove or refuse to admit in the first place.

I would imagine some of it is lower bureaucracy and a bit more freedom.

Problematic students exist in private schools and are often backed by serious money. I wouldn't make the generalization that behavior problems are only found in poor people.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#62

Post by protomyth » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:40 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #44

protomyth wrote: post #34

"Education funding is being slashed left and right" - uhm no - most states aren't getting the increases they want. The University of Minnesota loves to use this tactic in press releases that their funding was cut, when actually, their increase in funding was cut. I hate politics for the acceptance of lies as standard practice.

To be fair, if enrollment is increasing and funding is flat, the effect is a decrease in funding. From what I can gather, most areas have a per-student funding model so this doesn't mean your statement is incorrect, but it's a little more complicated than being the black to the university's white.

I did say most. The number of students is not increasing at a rate that would mess put the per student in most parts of the US.

http://nces.ed.gov has a lot of the actual numbers as opposed to partisan websites on either side.

PS: I am still trying to find a good source for # of non-teaching staff to teaching staff ratios. I get the feeling it has changed heavily in the last 30 years.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#63

Post by CWuestefeld » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:46 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #60

CWuestefeld wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public education isn't even that expensive. ... 7k/head/year, that's including everything. The guy's stats are way off. The average in 2006-2007 was $10,041 [1]. And MI is toward the large end of the spectrum, at $9,912 [2]. And where I live, these numbers are spiraling ever upwards. Michigan ... elected a fundamentalist lunatic for a governor. I have a hunch you may be a bit of a fundamentalist yourself. [1] http://…

He didn't make any claims about the national average, he was making a claim about his district. So his stats were pretty dead-on. Dummy. If you'd like to learn something, suburban school districts are typically way cheaper per student than urban ones, which is why his number is lower than the average and urban ones tend to be higher. Even for a national number (which you fudged from your own link, heh), that's a phen…

This is gonna be fun.

He didn't make any claims about the national average, he was making a claim about his district.

False. He made a claim about the State:

The State of Michigan spends annually somewhere between $30,000 and $40,000 per prisoner, yet we are struggling to provide schools with $7,000 per student.

He said "schools", not "my schools". And I provided a MI-specific figure of $9,666 in my response, reproduced here: [1].

Even for a national number (which you fudged from your own link, heh)

False. I copied that from the linked government data [2]:

Current expenditures in constant 2007-08 dollars ... School Year 2006-07 ... 10,041

So, what do you have to say now?

Dummy.

You're a classy guy.

[1] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/of-all-states-n...

[2] http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#64

Post by jbooth » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:55 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #63

jbooth wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't make any claims about the national average, he was making a claim about his district. So his stats were pretty dead-on. Dummy. If you'd like to learn something, suburban school districts are typically way cheaper per student than urban ones, which is why his number is lower than the average and urban ones tend to be higher. Even for a national number (which you fudged from your own link, heh), that's a phen…

This is gonna be fun. He didn't make any claims about the national average, he was making a claim about his district. False. He made a claim about the State: The State of Michigan spends annually somewhere between $30,000 and $40,000 per prisoner, yet we are struggling to provide schools with $7,000 per student. He said "schools", not "my schools". And I provided a MI-specific figure of $9,666 in my response, reprodu…

Sigh. The guy was pretty clearly talking about his schools, and definitely was not talking about the state average. The entire letter he's talking about "his" schools. The sentence you quoted might have been the only one in the whole passage that he omitted a posessive. He certainly never used the word "average"

If the state average is 9.6k, and his district is suburban, it stands to reason he'd be a fair bit under that at around 7k, esp in michigan where the cities are so f'd up. That would make total sense. Or we could just assume he's talking about something else and lying about it for no reason. Whatever.

Sorry for accusing you of fudging, I misread the stats myself and your attitude didn't generally come across as honest so I was too annoyed to double-check.

Anyways attempted gotcha nitpicking that doesn't change conclusions is way more substantive than actual education policy, I agree that this is awesome. You should work for CNN.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#65

Post by sp332 » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 6:04 PM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #50

sp332 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't be considered "professionals" because they're not held to any professional standards.

Seriously? I can see the arguments for accreditation, but to say they aren't held to professional standards is a joke. Again, solving hard problems means finding top talent. People love to slander teachers as lazy, but what can you really expect from an industry that repels talent - especially young talent. Teachers are vilified are underpaid ($60k is nothing for the type of problem being solved, and many teachers ma…

When was the last time a tenured teacher was let go for underperforming?

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#66

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 6:26 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #59

lukejduncan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? I can see the arguments for accreditation, but to say they aren't held to professional standards is a joke. Again, solving hard problems means finding top talent. People love to slander teachers as lazy, but what can you really expect from an industry that repels talent - especially young talent. Teachers are vilified are underpaid ($60k is nothing for the type of problem being solved, and many teachers ma…

to say they aren't held to professional standards is a joke. Sample non-professional behavior: --- quote [1] A video [2] posted on YouTube titled "Teacher's Union Gone Wild" claims to capture New Jersey teachers ... using racial slurs and joking about tenure. The undercover video was ... recorded during the New Jersey Education Association's leadership conference this summer. ... Another woman is shown playing a vide…

[deleted]

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#67

Post by nobodyspecial » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 7:04 PM UTC

owenmarshall wrote: post #35

latch wrote: post #6

Kudos to the superintendent for doing his job. Whatever validity you think his point has, there's no doubt he'll get a lot of attention thanks to the clever way he's approached the problem. I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Nowhere does it say you need a house with a spare bedroom and a bathroom for each per…

>I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Yes. And no. Economic problems arise because of a complex interactions between individuals and institutions. Both share responsibility -- while individuals should never go into a debt that they will likely struggle to repay, institutions shouldn't make it possible, or even…

#1 education. It's your duty as a parent (if you are) to teach your kids to live below their means, AND demonstrate by your own actions that it's the right thing to do. This would cause a lot of problems as our society recalibrates their thinking, but it's the only long-term solution that is reasonable (imho). #2 quit pushing liar-loans, limit the amount of interest that can be charged on credit-cards to 8-10%. Sure, that would limit the available credit, but so what - it would help insure we, as a people, stay solvent.

Another thing to remember - all of this credit just inflates the dollar cost of all goods and services - credit card companies get their cut, and the credit is created out of thin air (oversimplification, but it's based on a bank's reserves).

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#68

Post by johngalt » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 7:14 PM UTC

Ok now lets see what private schools are paid per student and compare outcomes.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#69

Post by SoftwareMaven » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 7:20 PM UTC

leot wrote: post #47

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a knowledge-based economy, education is critical to keep that economy moving, which is good for every tax payer. Make parents pay the full cost of educating their children, you'll see half the kids out of school, poverty will increase, and crime will skyrocket. Unemployment would go way up, but companies wouldn't be able to find skilled employees. This is already a problem now, imagine how bad it would be in a soc…

You're under the impression that the wealthy are looking to increase their absolute, rather than their relative, wealth. But much of what I've seen in the U.S. are policies focused on preserving or increasing relative wealth at the expense of the absolute kind. The millions who, for their whole lives, have been poorly educated and are now unemployed (or imprisoned) could be making stuff of value that would ultimately…

This effect will be I treating to watch as the cost to produce goods approaches zero and our economy transitioms away from a scarcity model to something else. I suspect there will be a lot of people fighting that along the way.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#70

Post by anamax » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 8:52 PM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #52

ori_b wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers aren't professionals in the sense that he's using. There is no accreditation procedure, there is no regulating body, there is no licensing, there is no code of ethics that must be followed by all programmers, and there is no liability attached to malpractice.

Note that there are accreditation procedures, regulating bodies, and licensing for teachers. So how are teachers not professionals?

> Note that there are accreditation procedures, regulating bodies, and licensing for teachers.

> So how are teachers not professionals?

Those are schemes for limiting the number of people who are allowed to teach in certain circumstances. They don't have much to do with quality teaching.

If you disagree, the following questions are relevant.

(1) How often does a regulating body discipline a teacher?

(2) In what circumstances are licenses actually revoked?

Feel free to compare the numbers to the corresponding ones for stock brokers. (I don't think that stock brokers are clean enough, so if teachers are worse....)