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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#541

Post by tal8d »

mkolodny wrote: post #400
ttz wrote: post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2: "Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the…

It is an absolutely braindead thing for a nuclear power to do - bio/chem weapon R&D. The reason why the US abandoned that course so long ago had nothing to do with morality - somebody in the DoD simply realized that they were furthering the state of the art in dirt cheap WMDs. If you already have nukes, you want to keep the cost of doomsday devices as high as possible - limiting the number of potential rivals.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#542

Post by tim333 »

qubit000 wrote: post #486
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mention deserves to be repeated. The chinese people and the CCP are not the same thing, just as the national security apparatus of the US... and US citizens are separate too. its natural to catch flak, but it happens to both sides. The saudi arabia govt is friendly to our govt, but the vast majority of their population thinks its totally OK to blow up US citizens. Iranian leadership is constantly at odds wit…

The CCP consists of 90M+ party members who represent all facets of society--larger than entire population of Germany. Include family members and it's 300M+ almost size of US. Furthermore, it's an integral part of Chinese society with overwhelming support among its citizens (>90%). The CCP is continuation of past dynasties operating under the 'Mandate of Heaven' to serve the people. Failure to do so and it will be rep…

I'm sure a lot of Chinese are not fans even if they are forced to join by practical considerations. Like most communist systems they are unable to have democratic elections because people would vote them out.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#543

Post by tim333 »

mxcrossb wrote: post #385
yurlungur wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need for you to preach to the choir about not trusting the Chinese government. As can be seen in the thread, people would much prefer to trust conspiracy theorists and fringe scientists before they put any trust in the Chinese government. To me, the only constructive discussion that can be had at this point needs to be around actual evidence, and not the absence of it. The first documented cases, first traces of p…

We’re just not following a good process of discerning truth here. We started with a blatant, baseless conspiracy theory “this is a weapon China created”. Then we white wash the theory to “China created it, but maybe it was an accident”. Then suddenly the burden of truth is on China to disprove this claim. It’s just not a sensible process, rooted in the fallacy of the middle ground; as you said we need to start from t…

I don't think many people believe "this is a weapon China created." It doesn't really make sense - it would be a rubbish weapon just killing the over 80s and why release it in your own country?

On the other hand asking if a bat type coronavirus could have come from the nearest place with lots of bat type coronavirus doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#544

Post by berdario »

Reuters is twisting the truth. We should rather listen to the scientists who actually worked at the WHO.

https://twitter.com/PeterDaszak/status/1360551108565999619

https://twitter.com/TheaKFischer/status/1360590441817772034

https://twitter.com/LiuXininBeijing/status/13607416005072691...

And people wonder why I complain about propaganda in the western world :/

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#545

Post by Hnrobert42 »

qubit000 wrote: post #486
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mention deserves to be repeated. The chinese people and the CCP are not the same thing, just as the national security apparatus of the US... and US citizens are separate too. its natural to catch flak, but it happens to both sides. The saudi arabia govt is friendly to our govt, but the vast majority of their population thinks its totally OK to blow up US citizens. Iranian leadership is constantly at odds wit…

The CCP consists of 90M+ party members who represent all facets of society--larger than entire population of Germany. Include family members and it's 300M+ almost size of US. Furthermore, it's an integral part of Chinese society with overwhelming support among its citizens (>90%). The CCP is continuation of past dynasties operating under the 'Mandate of Heaven' to serve the people. Failure to do so and it will be rep…

They are not mindless robots. They are doing the best the can living in a totalitarian state operating the most sophisticated internal surveillance ever.

How can you claim they the CCP has support with a straight face? First, says who? CCP-controlled media? Second, would the average Chinese person answer honestly? Third, the Chinese have never experienced real democracy. Asking them if they support the CCP is meaningless. It’s like asking a third-gen Red Sox fan if they support the Rex Sox.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#546

Post by DalasNoin »

andai wrote: post #519
saiya-jin wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that ignores the finding of Covid in September 2019 in Italy, which would make connection to Wuhan lab questionable

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN27W1J2 Very interesting. Does that mean Covid was in Europe 3 months before the supposed patient zero in Wuhan (December 8?)

According to this article, 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers in a random sample were positive on their antibody test. so 12% of italians had had Covid in September? And antibody levels decline after a while, so probably even more.

Sorry, but this would be pretty insane. Most likely explanation is probably false positives or scientific fraud or a combination. Antibody tests don't really prove much anyway since they are not directly identifying the virus. A full sequencing of a virus would be much better. The RNA would also give us information about the evolution of the virus.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#547

Post by Hnrobert42 »

yurlungur wrote: post #291
ttz wrote: post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

No need for you to preach to the choir about not trusting the Chinese government. As can be seen in the thread, people would much prefer to trust conspiracy theorists and fringe scientists before they put any trust in the Chinese government. To me, the only constructive discussion that can be had at this point needs to be around actual evidence, and not the absence of it. The first documented cases, first traces of p…

> the only constructive discussion that can be had at this point needs to be around actual evidence, and not the absence of it.

I don’t understand this point.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#548

Post by throwaway12jkbn »

qubit000 wrote: post #486
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mention deserves to be repeated. The chinese people and the CCP are not the same thing, just as the national security apparatus of the US... and US citizens are separate too. its natural to catch flak, but it happens to both sides. The saudi arabia govt is friendly to our govt, but the vast majority of their population thinks its totally OK to blow up US citizens. Iranian leadership is constantly at odds wit…

The CCP consists of 90M+ party members who represent all facets of society--larger than entire population of Germany. Include family members and it's 300M+ almost size of US. Furthermore, it's an integral part of Chinese society with overwhelming support among its citizens (>90%). The CCP is continuation of past dynasties operating under the 'Mandate of Heaven' to serve the people. Failure to do so and it will be rep…

I think the logic in this argument is faulty.

The CCP is an institution. Your argument implies that belonging to an institution means agreeing 100% with every single decision of the institution.

As, an example, imagine we are talking about a specific action Google took. While you could argue that all Google employees have some kind of responsibility in action s the company takes, would you argue that the millions of the company employees agree with every decision the institution takes?

One can be offended for anything. I fail to see what is arrogant or condescending about criticising an institution (even if millions of people belong to it).

P.S. I am ignoring the dynamics/incentives of being a member of an institution, which could be many more than agreeing with everything the institution does or say.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#549

Post by tim333 »

cratermoon wrote: post #297
turdnagel wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that is inevitable if the Chinese government continues to obfuscate?

Epidemiology. History. The Spanish Flu was called that because at the time everyone (for xenophobic reasons... sound familiar?) blamed Spain. Today we can say with reasonable confidence that the source of the 1918 influenza epidemic was.... wait for it..... Kansas

It would be ironic if the thing was basically started by the US again with funding for "in vivo characterization of SARSr-CoV spillover risk". (https://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R01-AI110964-06)

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#550

Post by tomp »

rlt wrote: post #410
mnming wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it interesting that on HN, without concrete evidence, when OP says: don't ever trust {A} on issue {B}. Depending on what A, B is, OP will usually get treated differently. A -> CCP. OP -> a concerned citizen. A -> Race/Color/Religion/Gender. OP -> Racist/Sexist. A -> Trump. OP -> a concern citizen. A -> Scientist. OP -> conspiracist. But one thing that I am sure is that it'll never ever be constructive. Not me…

I mean, if you say “don’t ever trust” an entire race/sex, then yeah, by definition you are racist/sexist.

It's perfectly acceptable in mainstream media to say "don't ever trust men on issue of sexual assault". Most people deny that's sexist, some even say that disagreeing with this position is sexist!
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