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Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

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Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#171

Post by saboot »

papa_reton wrote: post #140
saboot wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_funded_research_and_...

Unfortunately they are US-only, have small funding and deliver little publicly available results. And sometimes they do nasty stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Engineering_Institute...

Many of us deliver much of our results publicly all the time. At ORNL any user can come and use our facilities. We've got a neutron beam system which I think exists only in one other place on Earth. In fact, users can use it for free only if they pledge to publish their results publicly.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#172

Post by gruez »

idrios wrote: post #51
thayne wrote: post #29

I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.

Biomedical engineer with a 2.977GPA. Lots of extra curriculars, volunteered in labs, 160 credit hours of mostly STEM classes, lots of grad-level courses, relevant work experience, but GPA was 0.023 too low to pass the automated filters and I didn't get into any of the grad programs I applied for. I ended up doing fine in software development though. Also, the Wright Brothers didn't need a research lab to invent fligh…

>Also, the Wright Brothers didn't need a research lab to invent flight.

That's only because all the low hanging fruits were still not picked, right? Many discoveries during that time and in the centuries before were done by individuals rather than institutions.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#173

Post by yurlungur »

thayne wrote: post #29

I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.

Grant writing was also one of the aspects that most discouraged me from pursuing an academic career as well. I witnessed first hand the stress it induced in even the most capable professors and the level of result oriented thinking it mandated throughout the scientific process. Being a professor is a bit like being a lead contractor for NIH and NSF. If you want the resources (money) you need to chase where the fad is at. Failing that you will have to do a lot of teaching just to sustain yourself, and will cause your grad students to have a bad time throughout their career in your lab.

With all that said...the amount of academic freedom even within this flawed system is still greater than most other places I know of. Perhaps if you are a distinguished researcher working on your own terms and funded by one of the big tech companies things are better.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#174

Post by kayhi »

crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #168
ramraj07 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So surprisingly, many of my friends got their first R01s approved in the last year or two. Some actually didn't even have a good publication record or pedigree or institutional position. One even got 3! But was told that the committees are being lenient with first time appplicants. Somehow that feels worse? Like a heroin dealer giving the first shot at a discount? Glad I got out. I'm still hell bent on finding a way…

I'm working to create a community model with a communal research lab. It's meant to meet my needs as a researcher while also removing pressures/norms from capitalism, colonialism, and imperialism. What do you want to research and what's in your way?

For most it is the start up costs.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#175

Post by the_only_law »

kayhi wrote: post #174
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm working to create a community model with a communal research lab. It's meant to meet my needs as a researcher while also removing pressures/norms from capitalism, colonialism, and imperialism. What do you want to research and what's in your way?

For most it is the start up costs.

Yeah I tend to browse eBay and other resellers looking for old engineering / scientific equipment and even for obsolete stuff it often still resells pretty high.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#176

Post by reasonabl_human »

saboot wrote: post #132
raziel2701 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm employed in one of them and it is a very bureaucratic, political environment. Our facilities are dilapidated despite the billions in funding, resources are so wastefully spent, there's a lot of siloed equipment, a lot of unused equipment, and it's not unusual to see the lab fund the same project twice but run by different people. I would be so curious for an audit to be done to the lab just to see how misspent th…

I've worked at a few .. there's one that immediately comes to mind from your description, but some are much better than others at giving freedom to their staff to pursue their own ideas. There is funding like LDRD which is meant to support ideas from the bottom up.

I’ve previously worked at one before and have since drifted away from basic research. At this point I am gravitating toward it again... in your opinion, what FFRDCs are best at providing that freedom / are less political?

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#177

Post by reasonabl_human »

raziel2701 wrote: post #162
mattkrause wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no longer true. From 2013 onward, the results of all federally-funded research needs to be publicly available. Here's the memo mandating it: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2013/02/22/expandi... People do generally take this seriously and there are consequences (e.g., can't use publications in NIH grants if they haven't been deposited).

I have continued to publish and never have I been instructed to make the papers be open access. No one is enforcing that mandate. The research I've been a part of is wholly funded by the taxpayer and papers that I published after the mandate continue to not be freely available.

Perhaps they fall under export control due to being applicable to national defense?

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#178

Post by saboot »

reasonabl_human wrote: post #176
saboot wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked at a few .. there's one that immediately comes to mind from your description, but some are much better than others at giving freedom to their staff to pursue their own ideas. There is funding like LDRD which is meant to support ideas from the bottom up.

I’ve previously worked at one before and have since drifted away from basic research. At this point I am gravitating toward it again... in your opinion, what FFRDCs are best at providing that freedom / are less political?

My friend just started a job at LBNL and is loving it. LLNL is considered a great place to work as well. I can't speak to every single lab but I hear good things about working at both of them.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#180

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

bnralt wrote: post #75
raziel2701 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been a question I have no answer to: What do we do with all these smart people? Currently most just go inside hierarchical workplaces where they have to learn to play office politics and carry out meaningless job functions in exchange for financial security. We don't have a Bell labs anymore, science is getting more expensive and most of the venture capital money goes to software rather than to the more capita…

It seems like this is exactly the kind of thing that a government is useful for. Why not have more publicly funded research institutions that employ them, and put them to work on useful research without having them worry about grant considerations, teaching classes, or the publishing treadmill?

It used to be the case that doing science for most of the last 2000 years was a matter of deep curiosity and farnsworth-level application. Something , at least in the US, has changed.

What would you say is different from say 50 years ago ?

Why is it that now everything says "Made in China" while less than 40 years ago everything said "Made in USA" ?

Why does china have ~200 COVID19 vaccines while the US only has 3 or so ?

Going back to your thesis - I don't think the current situation is a fit for a government-mandated solution. I would think the exact opposite is true. I think the system today is exactly what results when you mix hard science with bureaucratic government procedure.

Science has taken several steps back due to government interference. You can't cure this patient by giving him a stronger dose of the same poison.

If anything , you simply need to think how we can remove all the bureaucracy and academia, out of science. Universities need to be decoupled from research. We need to get people to stop rewarding papers and grant-writing, and instead to start tinkering on their own, unhindered.

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