School superintendent requests school be turned into prison • Hacker News Board

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#51

Post by sorbus » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:07 PM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #41

latch wrote: post #6

Kudos to the superintendent for doing his job. Whatever validity you think his point has, there's no doubt he'll get a lot of attention thanks to the clever way he's approached the problem. I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Nowhere does it say you need a house with a spare bedroom and a bathroom for each per…

In a knowledge-based economy, education is critical to keep that economy moving, which is good for every tax payer. Make parents pay the full cost of educating their children, you'll see half the kids out of school, poverty will increase, and crime will skyrocket. Unemployment would go way up, but companies wouldn't be able to find skilled employees. This is already a problem now, imagine how bad it would be in a soc…

> This is already a problem now, imagine how bad it would be in a society with 1/4 of the current high school graduates not graduating.

By comparison, the dropout rate in 2008 was 8.0%, down from 11.8% in 1998[1].

[1] http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=16

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#52

Post by lukejduncan » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:09 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #43

scythe wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're not. Professionals are liable for malpractice. Even programmers?

Programmers aren't professionals in the sense that he's using. There is no accreditation procedure, there is no regulating body, there is no licensing, there is no code of ethics that must be followed by all programmers, and there is no liability attached to malpractice.

Note that there are accreditation procedures, regulating bodies, and licensing for teachers.

So how are teachers not professionals?

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#53

Post by jbooth » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:10 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #29

dasil003 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that teaching isn't a meritocracy. We talk about how hard it is to evaluate coder skill, but it's infinitely easier than evaluating teacher skill. Throw in institutional, cultural, union factors, and how far-reaching the implications are to every single person in the country, and you can see why it's such a clusterfuck of a problem. That said, I think teachers are undervalued and scapegoated in society…

The problem is that teaching isn't a meritocracy. We talk about how hard it is to evaluate coder skill, but it's infinitely easier than evaluating teacher skill The interesting thing is that students know perfectly well who the good and bad teachers are. And really, the school principals should know this as well... and if they don't know then they could easily find out just by sitting in on classes and looking at the…

Students do not know perfectly well who the good and bad teachers are. Adults with hindsight can discern the good and bad teachers but I can think of multiple cases where I had my good/bad flipped as a student compared to later on when I compared my knowledge level to other adults.

I had a writing teacher I didn't particularly like, then I got to a good college and found out I was one of the better writers. Turns out she was pretty damn good at her job.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#54

Post by dhume » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:11 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #36

ChrisLTD wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If having good teachers is a priority, then teachers should earn whatever is required to lure qualified people away from private-sector employment.

Public sector teachers make more than private sector teachers. http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_075.asp

Ever wonder why the private school teachers are content with their lower salary?

Public sector teachers have to deal with all of the problematic students that private schools can remove or refuse to admit in the first place.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#55

Post by ori_b » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:18 PM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #52

ori_b wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers aren't professionals in the sense that he's using. There is no accreditation procedure, there is no regulating body, there is no licensing, there is no code of ethics that must be followed by all programmers, and there is no liability attached to malpractice.

Note that there are accreditation procedures, regulating bodies, and licensing for teachers. So how are teachers not professionals?

Point. I don't really know how teacher accreditation works in the states, so I don't know if they'd qualify as professionals or not.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#56

Post by zandorg » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:19 PM UTC

I wrote a novel (titled Alcatraz: The College Years) in 2004 where in an imaginary version of 1985, a group of kids in a troubled school get sent to Alcatraz (which in the story has been refurbished like a comfortable prison). I was told the story was unlikely to happen...

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#57

Post by CWuestefeld » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #45

latch wrote: post #6

Kudos to the superintendent for doing his job. Whatever validity you think his point has, there's no doubt he'll get a lot of attention thanks to the clever way he's approached the problem. I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Nowhere does it say you need a house with a spare bedroom and a bathroom for each per…

Public education isn't even that expensive. Did you read the guy's letter? 7k/head/year, that's including everything. Society definitely gets a huge return on that investment. It should be a no-brainer. Michigan is A) hard hit and B) elected a fundamentalist lunatic for a governor. The guy's been in office less than 6 months and everyone hates him already, he has an ideological beef with the idea of public education…

Public education isn't even that expensive. ... 7k/head/year, that's including everything.

The guy's stats are way off. The average in 2006-2007 was $10,041 [1]. And MI is toward the large end of the spectrum, at $9,912 [2]. And where I live, these numbers are spiraling ever upwards.

Michigan ... elected a fundamentalist lunatic for a governor.

I have a hunch you may be a bit of a fundamentalist yourself.

[1] http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

[2] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/of-all-states-n...

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#58

Post by rapind » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:24 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #29

dasil003 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that teaching isn't a meritocracy. We talk about how hard it is to evaluate coder skill, but it's infinitely easier than evaluating teacher skill. Throw in institutional, cultural, union factors, and how far-reaching the implications are to every single person in the country, and you can see why it's such a clusterfuck of a problem. That said, I think teachers are undervalued and scapegoated in society…

The problem is that teaching isn't a meritocracy. We talk about how hard it is to evaluate coder skill, but it's infinitely easier than evaluating teacher skill The interesting thing is that students know perfectly well who the good and bad teachers are. And really, the school principals should know this as well... and if they don't know then they could easily find out just by sitting in on classes and looking at the…

The problem is that even the most astute principals can't do anything about their bad employees. They can only trade them off to other schools (and what do you think they get in return?).

Once a teacher has tenure it is almost impossible to fire them... and they know it. The concept of tenure in general isn't necessarily an issue, it's just an incredibly bad implementation (only takes 3 years! come on!).

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#59

Post by CWuestefeld » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

lukejduncan wrote: post #50

sp332 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't be considered "professionals" because they're not held to any professional standards.

Seriously? I can see the arguments for accreditation, but to say they aren't held to professional standards is a joke. Again, solving hard problems means finding top talent. People love to slander teachers as lazy, but what can you really expect from an industry that repels talent - especially young talent. Teachers are vilified are underpaid ($60k is nothing for the type of problem being solved, and many teachers ma…

to say they aren't held to professional standards is a joke.

Sample non-professional behavior:

--- quote [1]

A video [2] posted on YouTube titled "Teacher's Union Gone Wild" claims to capture New Jersey teachers ... using racial slurs and joking about tenure. The undercover video was ... recorded during the New Jersey Education Association's leadership conference this summer.

... Another woman is shown playing a video game laughs that taxpayers are paying her to play it. Another clip shows people sarcastically talking about tenure that it is a "joke" and teachers can do almost anything without being fired.

--- end quote

[1] http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/new_jersey/teache...

[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdqQTIQhn5A

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#60

Post by jbooth » Thu, Jun 02, 2011, 5:30 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #57

jbooth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public education isn't even that expensive. Did you read the guy's letter? 7k/head/year, that's including everything. Society definitely gets a huge return on that investment. It should be a no-brainer. Michigan is A) hard hit and B) elected a fundamentalist lunatic for a governor. The guy's been in office less than 6 months and everyone hates him already, he has an ideological beef with the idea of public education…

Public education isn't even that expensive. ... 7k/head/year, that's including everything. The guy's stats are way off. The average in 2006-2007 was $10,041 [1]. And MI is toward the large end of the spectrum, at $9,912 [2]. And where I live, these numbers are spiraling ever upwards. Michigan ... elected a fundamentalist lunatic for a governor. I have a hunch you may be a bit of a fundamentalist yourself. [1] http://…

He didn't make any claims about the national average, he was making a claim about his district. So his stats were pretty dead-on. Dummy.

If you'd like to learn something, suburban school districts are typically way cheaper per student than urban ones, which is why his number is lower than the average and urban ones tend to be higher.

Even for a national number (which you fudged from your own link, heh), that's a phenomenal return on investment, no private schools are nearly that cheap except for catholic schools, and they have an unscalable labor model (cheap nuns aren't in infinite supply).

Supporting public education and the profession of teaching as noble causes that benefit everyone used to be mainstream in this country. If it makes me a fundamentalist now, that's just one more sign of our decline.