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Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

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Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#81

Post by rleigh »

mnd999 wrote: post #66
disposekinetics wrote: post #58

Is there a standard way to get Usenet access these days?

NNTP is a standard. I use eternal-september.

I joined a couple of years back, but came away disappointed. All the groups I followed 20 years back are pale shadows of their former selves, filled with spam. And most of those were big in the day and included the comp.lang.c|c++ and a few of the comp.os groups.

There's still a need for usenet, and I'd love to participate if there was anyone worth talking to. But it needs fixing first.

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#82

Post by centimeter »

andybak wrote: post #75
hvocode wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I've met a number of old farts like me who were not thrilled when what we assumed was transient had been archived. I'm not a big fan of the opt-out model of archiving where archivers just assume that they have implied consent to grab anything and everyone from everyone who hasn't explicitly said no.

Dunno. History matters and historians would probably strongly disagree. Some things are more important than you think. Too much gets lost too easily.

Even if this were true, it would be better if the archives were not available for some decades after the original posting. I’m OK with my content being analyzed by historians, but the definition of “historian” presumes some professional detachment that is not available short years after the post was made.

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#83

Post by zoomablemind »

Not that the comparison is equal, but imagine if one day the stackoverflow et al. went dark for good... (horror!)

How many important projects would suddenly need to extend their deadlines, how many hopeful interviews would go bust. How many coding approaches would have to be re-discovered or written anew based on present best-practices.

Where all that collective need for "tribal-knowledge" would channel to?

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#84

Post by andybak »

coldtea wrote: post #76
andybak wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno. History matters and historians would probably strongly disagree. Some things are more important than you think. Too much gets lost too easily.

> Dunno. History matters and historians would probably strongly disagree. People don't live or structure their lives to satisfy historians...

No. I'm struggling to think of a reply better than "Obviously, not."

I think your statement was already implicit in what I was saying. We should move on to the next bit where I say "But..." and you counter it.

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#85

Post by zxcvbn4038 »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #42
_kst_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google had the most complete archive of comp.lang.c (and the rest of Usenet). That archive is now inaccessible. Users posting to comp.lang.c through Google Groups were a problem -- especially with the recent bug that caused GG posts to comp.lang.c++ to have the "++" quietly dropped. If Google made its archive of all Usenet newsgroups available, I'd be fine with them dropping the posting interface. (And some users act…

> " ... complete archive of ... Usenet " sotto voce > Usenet postings were never meant to be permanent. I was there in its heyday and nobody expected their postings to live beyond the spool expiration lifetime.

It took years but all of my old Usenet posts eventually were removed. The people running archives tended to be real jerks about it - I’m pretty sure a couple of them got off on telling me no with long hand typed explanations, but in the end most of them were running archives on their employer’s equipment and when they switched jobs, got let go, or retired they couldn’t take it with them and nobody else wanted to maintain them so eventually the last copy I could find fell.

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#86

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

strokirk wrote: post #67
mnd999 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I’m getting old but I’m always amazed when people don’t know what Usenet is. Or at least aren’t able to spot a Usenet group by name.

Where would you learn about it? I've never seen an invite or an indication that any form of contribution is welcomed, or even possible.

You don't "get an invite". You use an NNTP client to access from a service that supports the protocol. Once upon a time this was handled by one's ISP.

The only trick is figuring out how to post to alt.hackers where your contribution isn't welcome unless you can "hack" your way in.

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#87

Post by andybak »

centimeter wrote: post #82
andybak wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno. History matters and historians would probably strongly disagree. Some things are more important than you think. Too much gets lost too easily.

Even if this were true, it would be better if the archives were not available for some decades after the original posting. I’m OK with my content being analyzed by historians, but the definition of “historian” presumes some professional detachment that is not available short years after the post was made.

I think even leaving aside historians - the idea of making everything posting transient by default would have robbed us of a lot of stored knowledge. I'm feeling quite bitter about the rise of Slack and Discord over mailing lists and Usenet.

The ease in which one can find clues and solutions to decades old technical questions relies on everything being stored.

And more than just technical issues - I'm no historian but I've wasted endless hours following fascinating discussions from the past that suddenly become relevent because of recent events or unforeseen connections. I love how much is preserved by accident. It makes me slightly sad to think that it might be otherwise and that others would wish it otherwise.

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#88

Post by ineedasername »

blt wrote: post #72
ridiculous_fish wrote: post #54

Some fun comp.lang.c history: Dennis Ritchie posted, sharing an extremely early version of a C compiler. Richard Heathfield (well known C book author) jokingly chided Ritchie for posting something off-topic, as it was not part of ANSI C. In typical Usenet fashion, this triggered a huge thread, arguing over the appropriateness of the joke. Even Linus Torvalds got involved. Apparently Heathfield emailed Ritchie private…

This is hilarious. I could see something similar happening on HN today.

It shouldn't matter whether or not it's hilarious. Attempts at humor often fall flat on the internet and are somewhat frowned on per HN guidelines. You're objectively wrong and anyone who agrees should chime in to say so. Disagree? Fine, but come to this thread to tell us why. #s

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#89

Post by papa_reton »

fatbird wrote: post #53
themihai wrote: post #15

People should get used to be deplatformed. I see this as a good thing. Maybe the cloud lock-in madness will stop.

This is an interesting point: that a commitment to practical free speech for everyone, everywhere, will tend towards consolidation of platforms and natural monopolies. Cancellation, deplatforming, etc. might actually drive platform diversity and innovation which will, in turn, further freedom of expression far more effectively than public pressure to tolerate everything.

The Paradox of Tolerance comes to mind, also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony

Re: Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned

#90

Post by manicdee »

zoomablemind wrote: post #83

Not that the comparison is equal, but imagine if one day the stackoverflow et al. went dark for good... (horror!) How many important projects would suddenly need to extend their deadlines, how many hopeful interviews would go bust. How many coding approaches would have to be re-discovered or written anew based on present best-practices. Where all that collective need for "tribal-knowledge" would channel to?

Donald Knuth, “The Art of Computer Programming” would grow more volumes by guest writers, perhaps.
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