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Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

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Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#61
post #29

I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.

It's a hard and frustrating career. I work on an academic lab but the chances of me having an independent research program are very low. However, everyone who wants something from you -- especially your PI -- will string you along in the hope you will stick to your low paying job. I am trying to find a better job in industry but the jobs I see posted tend to be for data science (I am not a strong stats person) or too junior for my experiences.Finding the right fit is very hard when my contact network is limited to clinicians and academics that tend to have anti-industry sentiments.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#62
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent many years in the academic spaces, both in public genetics labs as well as in computer science departments. I've never encountered anything like what you claim, and no one I know in academia has either. Extraordinary claims like yours need proof, no one will or should take you at your word, especially when there is the weight of many others experiences that cut against your claims.

Lior Pachter is pretty good at calling balls and strikes on this sort of thing

Hey, sorry, I googled but he has a lot of work and I couldn't find where he talks about fraud (or lack thereof) in science. If you have a link handy would you mind sharing?

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#63

Is it counterproductive that we expect researchers to work in universities and become professors? It seems like there should be more outlets for the calling. Our universities are proving to be a bottleneck. I see how there is an often-natural relationship between cultivating knowledge and disseminating it to students. However, we need and have more prospective researchers than universities are willing or able to supp…

That's been a question I have no answer to: What do we do with all these smart people?

Currently most just go inside hierarchical workplaces where they have to learn to play office politics and carry out meaningless job functions in exchange for financial security.

We don't have a Bell labs anymore, science is getting more expensive and most of the venture capital money goes to software rather than to the more capital-intensive lab equipment plus salaries.

We as a society train all these phds that then leave their field of expertise because there's no opportunities. You can try your luck as an underpaid postdoc and hope that you get an amazing article on a high reputation journal and at the same time a faculty position has opened up (because the faculty died) for the particular niche field you are an expert in. That's a lot that's utterly outside of your control. So most just go into finance/consulting/tech and move on. All that training, for nothing.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#64
post #11

> universities ... expect faculty in the medical schools to pay their own way with either clinical work or external research funding. This puts tremendous financial pressure on eager young medical researchers, sometimes leading them not to the projects that are most needed or that they are most passionate about, but to the projects that will get them funding. Sometimes it feels as if the current system we have in the…

Give money to brilliant scientists with no strings attached. Let scientists among themselves figure out who is brilliant. If the system gets corrupted, a second group of scientists will emerge who claim to be the real deal. Let them battle it out and choose the smarter group for further funding. In other words, do it the way it was done before the influx of the administrative overhead.

Given "Planck's Principle"of "Science progresses one funeral at a time", it does not seem that scientists within the system will be the best to figure out who should be favored over them.

That second group cannot emerge if it does not have funding. Einstein was 'lucky' in that he had his job as a patent clerk that allowed him his theoretical studies until he finally found his way into an acedemic career.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#65
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biomedical engineer with a 2.977GPA. Lots of extra curriculars, volunteered in labs, 160 credit hours of mostly STEM classes, lots of grad-level courses, relevant work experience, but GPA was 0.023 too low to pass the automated filters and I didn't get into any of the grad programs I applied for. I ended up doing fine in software development though. Also, the Wright Brothers didn't need a research lab to invent fligh…

> Biology-focused hacker spaces are on the rise so there are still ways to do research. I am very interested in this concept. Are you thinking of any in particular? I really wish people invested in public spaces people could go do science, particularly chemistry.

I joined one called "BioCurious"[1] in the SF Bay area to work on a project making a fluorescence microscope. The project was advertised on Meetup.com which is how I found it, and there were other similar projects that met up weekly. If you paid a membership fee though you got 24/hr access so I met a person there outside of academia who was using the lab's resources to continue the neuroscience research he had done for his PhD.

In the bay area I also know of CounterCulture [2] which I've only heard high praise of but I've never visited. I've since moved to Baltimore and found some places I wanted to check out but unfortunately because of Covid I've been stuck at home.

[1] https://biocurious.org/ [2] https://www.counterculturelabs.org/

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#66

I have been thinking recently how to reform the science system here in germany, which is somewhat similar to the system in the US. What I think is impossible is to completely eliminate the grant chasing for the early career scientist. It's just that there's more supply than demand in a lot of sciences and not everyone can make it, if we try to give everyone a grant we end up with grants that are not really paying for…

This is a common problem in many commodity markets. If creating new supply is inexpensive, and all market participants have functionally equivalent technology and operational expertise. New supply will always emerge to eat away any margin that a market participant may have. (Think Restaurants, farming, small-time delivery/construction, uber driving)

If you follow this through to the extreme you end up with a vicious cycle of boom/bust where any demand opportunity that emerges is crushed under 10x the supply increase. The market becomes unstable as new participants have clean balance sheets and older participants go into debt that cannot be paid. Supply is only maintained through the addition of new market participants willing to lose their capital or burn their balance sheet on debt in a private parallel to the tragedy of the commons.

One traditional solution that keeps these markets stable, and market participants from simply bankrupting every few years is to introduce an artificial supply cap. In construction, and small business markets this task is often performed by the zoning board, or a local licensing board. In the case of larger markets participants may form cartels such as in OPEC, Maple Syrup, or international shipping.

In the case of science, the task of supply control traditional fell on admissions committees and the availability of permanent tenure tracked professorships. This mechanism broke down with the introduction of non-tenure track positions, and the external funding of grad-students. Universities now have every incentive to flood the market with vastly more scientists than can reasonably be funded - which combined with the inherent riskiness of scientific research means we have a combination of science "bankruptcies" and low-risk, low-quality academic research to show for it.

I'd much rather see fewer tenured professors ridiculed for their oddball research than an army of post-docs and grad students performing meaningless research which is suitable for publishing.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give money to brilliant scientists with no strings attached. Let scientists among themselves figure out who is brilliant. If the system gets corrupted, a second group of scientists will emerge who claim to be the real deal. Let them battle it out and choose the smarter group for further funding. In other words, do it the way it was done before the influx of the administrative overhead.

>If the system gets corrupted, a second group of scientists will emerge who claim to be the real deal. Let them battle it out and choose the smarter group for further funding. Would this involve an application? Perhaps a committee?

Sometimes I wonder if the people making "why don't they just ... " type comments even bother to read what they have written.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#68

It's pretty easy to see who is a top star (because they have continuous highest-quality output), and who will never deliver anything worthwhile. The trouble is the continuum between those two extremes. This domain is dominated by politics, endless grant applications, bureaucracy. Nobody can really tell where you belong in this continuum, maybe not even you yourself. And I also don't believe that academia is the best…

Define “highest-quality.” Is it publishing in the most prestigious journals? Obtaining the most prestigious grants? See what I did there?

Ground-breaking research often doesn’t qualify for either because it’s too new and scientists on those committees don’t understand it.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#69
post #29

I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.

The grant system completely compromises most faculty'$ ability to do anything with their decades of training besides sell themselves. Especially young faculty during their most productive years. The only way to turn this around is to change the way we give credit for scientific achievements, and stop rewarding "I wrote the grant" With authorships. (Im ex faculty)

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#70
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Biology-focused hacker spaces are on the rise so there are still ways to do research. I am very interested in this concept. Are you thinking of any in particular? I really wish people invested in public spaces people could go do science, particularly chemistry.

I joined one called "BioCurious"[1] in the SF Bay area to work on a project making a fluorescence microscope. The project was advertised on Meetup.com which is how I found it, and there were other similar projects that met up weekly. If you paid a membership fee though you got 24/hr access so I met a person there outside of academia who was using the lab's resources to continue the neuroscience research he had done f…

If you haven't seen it Lior Pachter at CalTech has been sharing open source / 3d printable designs for lab equipment [1].

[1] https://twitter.com/lpachter/status/1354955229532360707

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