Live data from Hacker News

US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

71–80 of 664 posts

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#71
> echoing concerns raised by the administration of former President Donald Trump, who also moved to quit the WHO over the issue

This is what gets me in politics: For all the well-deserved vilification Trump was subjected to, it seems that every day we are discovering some of the important policies and opinions they issued were right on point. The dichotomy, it seems, is one of vilification due to his often insolent and down-right ignorant public style and presence rather than anything I would characterize as substantive.

I have worked with people like that. People with sometimes deep personality and social issues who do great work and excel professionally. To take it in another direction, back when I was actively mentoring high school FRC teams we got all kinds of kids. There were kids on the Autism spectrum as well as Asperger's. I can say that every single one of them was superb in their team participation once I learned how to work with them and, above all, accept that they didn't sound or behave like the rest.

I am not making a parallel between Trump and these conditions. Just saying that it is sometimes important to focus on substance rather than theater.

Case in point:

I just got my second COVID vaccine yesterday. Shaking and feeling like crap as I type this (it will last a few hours).

When Trump said vaccines were coming by the end of the year everyone laughed at him. It was brutal. I remember watching CNN as they tore him to pieces for daring to "not use science" and raising our hopes in such ignorant ways.

Well, we are currently vaccinating at a rate of approximately 1.5 million people per day and this will go up.

Did Biden do this? Look, I am in manufacturing. Have been my entire life. You don't produce 1.5 million per day of anything, distribute and administer it with some sort of a "then a miracle occurs" approach. Biden has only been in office a few days. There is absolutely no way he could have any material impact on vaccine delivery and administration during that time. These things have to be planned and well-executed for months. Which means I got my vaccine (and 1.5 million people are getting their vaccines) because of the organization and planning the Trump administration created and drove, likely back to March/April of last year. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone --WITH MANUFACTURING EXPERIENCE-- who thinks you can instantly go from 100K per day to 1.5 million per day just because there's a new boss in town. I mean, remember that we couldn't even produce masks and PPE at scale in this country (or nearly any other country). In this sense this should have been a massive wakeup call to the world, not just the US.

This means that Biden's "100 million in 100 days" will be achieved and exceeded --by Trump-- so long as people go get vaccinated. And, without a doubt, Biden will take credit for 100% of it. This is what I hate about politics.

There are other issues for which he was vilified that will turn out to have been right non point. I won't dive into the details here. Some of these include:

- The Paris climate accord (seriously, google the document, read it and tell me how it will save the world...it's nonsense...expensive nonsense)

- Tariffs on steel and aluminum. I am doing an aircraft design project right now. I can buy US-made aluminum for roughly 25% less than the cost of steel. That has never been the case in my life. Of course, everyone in the metals industry wants Biden to keep the tariffs in place. May I remind you Trump was called "racist" and all kinds of other things for enacting this?

- The pipeline. Aside from the fact that tens of thousands of jobs will be lost (a good friend of mine lost his and is facing having to sell his house to survive). Everything around you requires oil. It doesn't matter if it is made from plastics or not. You don't think aluminum and steel require oil for manufacturing and more? Do some research. The US achieved net exporter status during Trump's years. That will surely go away. Also, cost of goods (not just gasoline) was kept under check because we controlled oil. Not any more. A friend in Arizona tells me gasoline prices have doubled there. I regularly ship large aerospace components in the thousands of pounds. Freight prices are being impacted by this (my opinion) stupid move. Yes, we all want everything clean. However, there's a fine line between wishing something and being delusional about how and when it can be achieved.

Anyhow, I'll stop here. There's more, but I need to go to the couch and shake-off the vaccine side effects for a few hours. If you disagree with the above, be honest enough to do the research before forming an opinion. Above all, if you do not have operational experience running a business, you need to understand that you are not equipped to understand the many dynamics at play here.

Simple example: If gas prices explode companies are going to have to raise pay for their workers. Sounds good until you understand at least two things. First, the worker doesn't get to use that raise, it goes towards paying for oil. Second, that money could have been used to hire more people and create jobs. In fact, higher oil prices could destroy jobs in areas one might not suspect.

No, everyone isn't going to go buy electric cars and trucks. Get over it. This will take a long time. The infrastructure isn't ready.

FYI: Fixing climate change by 2030/2050/2100? Delusional. We can't do it. And yet we are going to burn resources promoting pure bullshit instead of talking about how to adapt.

Politics sucks. I want honest exchange of ideas judged by their merit, not through a political lens.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#72
post #52

Related: Scientists found SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in US blood samples taken from December 2019 to January 2020 https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid... Edit: removed incorrect conclusion

Studies have shown that it was circulating in France back in November 2019. Not saying it originated there, there’s no indication of that, but there is a possibility that it had already been spreading for some time before December 2019.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean primary sources like the program that had US scientists embedded in Chinese laboratories that Trump dismantled in 2019? Also, you clearly don’t understand what the WHO does and how critical it has been in the reduction and even eradication of disease spread across the world over decades. Further, the WHO, much like most multilateral organizations is dependent on its member states for strength. When the most…

Okay, I'm happy to amend to "The WHO is useless for information on novel disease spread". That's what I intended anyway but clearly did not constrain the sentence correctly. Yeah, I'm sure as a multilateral platform for cooperation on things that everyone wants done they're good. But as an information source for novel epidemics, clearly we should use our spy sats.

How do we use our spy satellites for information about an epidemic?

I'm really struggling to understand what you're suggesting here. I'm aware there is a whole cottage industry of conspiracy theorists that point to satellite photos of busy parking lots outside hospitals in Hubei Province as evidence of earlier spread of Covid than has been officially acknowledged. But there's no way to distinguish a busy parking lot caused by a severe influenza outbreak (which existed prior to Covid in Hubei) and a novel pathogen.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#74

The WHO is a useless organization. For political reasons, it will be necessary to engage, but hopefully US authorities will not treat it as an information source. The US should use its own primary sources in future to evaluate disease spread. China will lie to the WHO and the WHO will protect it. But to know the truth, we should use our modern equivalents of Key Hole. There is no truth but that which you have examine…

right dude, china needs to be truthful just like the US has been /s

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#75

The WHO is a useless organization. For political reasons, it will be necessary to engage, but hopefully US authorities will not treat it as an information source. The US should use its own primary sources in future to evaluate disease spread. China will lie to the WHO and the WHO will protect it. But to know the truth, we should use our modern equivalents of Key Hole. There is no truth but that which you have examine…

There is no winning with you... Of course it cannot be too powerful, because then nationalists would scream bloody murder and refuse to have anything to do with it. The WHO is a forum to coordinate strategy and exchange information. Obviously, this requires a minimum of good faith, which seems to be difficult for some countries (yes, particularly dictatorships). But even then, it is better to have them within, collab…

>But even then, it is better to have them within, collaborating on their terms, than to leave them outside, in which case it would be even harder to get any information out of them.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, however I'm always on the fence as to if acting on no new information is better than acting on false or misleading information. If you can't trust the source the data is almost worthless. Anyways, that's for self reported information. Getting any direct access to gather independent information I'd say is nearly always valuable unless it's also targeted with disinformation campaigns.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#76

The WHO is a useless organization. For political reasons, it will be necessary to engage, but hopefully US authorities will not treat it as an information source. The US should use its own primary sources in future to evaluate disease spread. China will lie to the WHO and the WHO will protect it. But to know the truth, we should use our modern equivalents of Key Hole. There is no truth but that which you have examine…

>China will lie to the WHO and the WHO will protect it. Do you have any reason to believe that this is true?

How about [1]? Corrupt organizaiton's loyalties typically lie with those who sponsor it.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-pled...

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#77
post #47

If it was lab created independent scientists would be able to figure it out and there would be evidence that it was. But it looks like there is not: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 Now maybe the virus mutated from those initial 174 cases but that's unlikely. China does have a narrative that covid19 reinfections are coming from imported frozen foods though so I'm not sure why they are pushing that an…

I don't feel convinced by the argument. Maybe someone can help me understand better.

- Virus infects human ACE2 suboptimally, therefore it's not lab grown. Why? Because a virus engineer is always going for maximizing spread rate? Seems plausible that less-than-ideal infection rates of humans could be a feature rather than a bug.

- A polybasic clevage site was not seen in SARS-CoV... but it's function is not known. Okay?

- The virus backbone was "0day" and not previously known to researchers. Seems like a feature that a covert bio warfare lab would desire.

The rest of the speculation seems to ride on the assumption that the virus originated in China (despite evidence showing otherwise[1][2]), and their discovery seems biased toward any data to support that conclusion.

1. https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid...

2. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-020-00716-2

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#78
post #3

Beside the danger of adding function to an infectious virus, the biggest danger is the complete politicization of the virus. The WHO has changed their tune back and forth, often vehemently with little to back up its position. In that light the US should consider withdrawing completely from this body.

Of course it has! Our knowledge of the virus and disease has changed quite a lot since December 2019. Initially we had no idea about the transmission rate, survivability in air or on surfaces, contact transmission, transmission to other species, etc. What should they have done?

If anything they were cautious before February 2020.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#79
If anyone is tempted to associate 'lab leak' with xenophobia or anti-Chinese sentiment, please remember the WIV lab was in partnership with the U.S. NIH (National Institutes of Health).

https://www.biospace.com/article/1nih-awards-ecohealth-allia...

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I'm happy to amend to "The WHO is useless for information on novel disease spread". That's what I intended anyway but clearly did not constrain the sentence correctly. Yeah, I'm sure as a multilateral platform for cooperation on things that everyone wants done they're good. But as an information source for novel epidemics, clearly we should use our spy sats.

How do we use our spy satellites for information about an epidemic? I'm really struggling to understand what you're suggesting here. I'm aware there is a whole cottage industry of conspiracy theorists that point to satellite photos of busy parking lots outside hospitals in Hubei Province as evidence of earlier spread of Covid than has been officially acknowledged. But there's no way to distinguish a busy parking lot…

Using "spy sats" in a pars pro toto sense. The intelligence apparatus.
Post reply on HN