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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#301

Post by renox »

dagw wrote: post #299
rewgs wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking at a career change (possibly to tech), and I can't help but wonder: is there a way to be one of these managers, but without being a coder first? Weird question, I know. But I'm an advanced beginner of a programmer who knows that I'd make a better manager than a SWE. Almost would prefer to just leap-frog to management since, as it is, I'm already looking at a career change and know my strengths.

is there a way to be one of these managers, but without being a coder first? There is, but probably not in a Software company, since they tend to prefer promoting experienced programmers to managers based on their tech skills (for better or worse) Companies that work in logistics, banking, engineering etc. and have in-house software teams, but don't ship software as their primary business are far more open to hiring…

My previous manager was non technical, my current manager is an ex-developer, it makes things a bit simpler to have an ex-developer as manager but it isn't 'that' different, it just meant that before I had to simplify the description of the issues, which is a good thing anyway (most of the time).

And the best thing my manager can do for our team is political: each team/site competes for the more interesting features to develop..

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#302

Post by bartvk »

lucifersam wrote: post #238
geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

> like I'd taint my career and be viewed as a failure

My old boss said: "on the way to work in the morning, you should be whistling". I'm from The Netherlands, and I'm not sure if it translates well. But that's the point where I thought that I love engineering, stopped caring about what others may think, and put my management ambitions in the freezer.

Five years further, and I'm slowly coming back to that decision, but in a much more natural way. I started freelancing, took on an apprentice, and slowly I'm getting more responsibilities. But in a natural way, not an all-or-nothing choice.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#303

Post by caspar »

epsilonclose wrote: post #235
jmd509 wrote: post #63

As a non-technical professional (yes we also peruse HN), I can't stress enough the value of having career conversations early and often with your manager. It's not just HR mumbo-jumbo. OP's story is just one example of a potential benefit. Most organizations actively try to support internal mobility (admittedly with varied success). Companies invest resources in hiring, training, and keeping you. Your manager, as a r…

I don't know. For a sufficiently large change, it isn't necessarily in your company's best interest to try to keep you happy. You have banked knowledge and skill in X. You have limited skill in Y but wish to learn. The loss of some fraction of X is always going to hurt the company more than your gain in Y will benefit them, so they are going to try to keep you doing as much of X as possible for as long as possible. I…

In addition to what other responders have said, another factor is that if you're a top (or better than average) performer in X, then the default assumption will be that you'll be a top (or better than average) performer in Y, given some time to ramp on Y.

That may or may not be true, of course, but it's an element in your favor either way!

(though fwiw, in my time as a past manager, I found that significant effort counted for a lot - it's cliche but folks who consistently put in extra effort and worked their butts off improved faster than those who relaxed, so they would soon exceed folks who relaxed, even if they had much less of a head start.)

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#304

Post by QuercusMax »

decafninja wrote: post #147

My current dream is to be "demoted" from senior SWE at a non-tech company to a mid level (or even junior! if possible) SWE at a mid to top tech company.

I got "demoted" from being a Director and Fellow at a small company to being a Senior SWE at Google, with a significant pay bump even after taking into account bay area prices. I kept telling my old boss that I didn't want to manage, and eventually got the Fellow title instead of Director. I felt like I was stagnating.

Now I'm on my way to Senior Staff SWE, and I keep telling my managers that I don't want to manage, which so far has been working OK. I've got enough responsibilities at home (3 teenagers) and at work that I don't feel like I need additional "children" to manage.

Maybe I'll feel differently once my kids are a little older, but right now I've got plenty on my plate without worrying about others' careers and the millions of additional meetings that managers have.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#305

Post by BridgetJones »

lucifersam wrote: post #238
geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

As a FAANG Staff engineer, yes my days are full of meetings (with coding breaks in the middle). I view the meetings as a way to solve technical problems beyond one person to solve alone, a way to scale my own impact - not LOC I wrote, but LOC I enabled. Fully agreed though that even as an IC, I feel like a manager, especially in COVID times, when a lot of junior engineers I work with need more TLC from their "leadership".

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#307

Post by fit2rule »

Falkon1313 wrote: post #293
jimbokun wrote: post #55

> The hardest part for me has been getting used to working on code that lots of other people had worked on. This is probably the single most significant differentiator between skills academic CS or programming courses and real world development.

That and the related bits - hashing out nebulous requirements, agreeing on an approach, pinning down an estimate, coming to a consensus on what color to paint the bikeshed.

.. writing the code .. testing the code .. writing docs that show others how to test the code .. distributing the code .. getting the users through a few upgrade/update release cycles .. refactoring to a new product .. maintaining all of this .. writing docs to help others maintain all of this ..

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#308

Post by Geminidog »

carlisle_ wrote: post #207
Geminidog wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly. Show me the data for this specific case of horizontal movement in engineering organizations for women and you have an argument that can change my view. >If you actually want to call yourself a legitimate feminist you should spend more time listening and learning. It might make you actuall…

You wanna get educated go educate yourself. I'm frankly pretty disgusted by your posts and don't have the patience to educate somebody who is stubborn and unwilling to consider other perspectives.

Carlisle I don't know if you're going to read this. Before I met you I truly believed in equal opportunities for both sexes. I also believed that men and women have different advantages when it comes to gender and that both sexes utilize these advantages for unfair gain and that was just the reality of the unfair world we live in.

You have changed my view. I am no longer a feminist. You have changed my view. I now believe that women don't deserve equal opportunity and must be suppressed by men because of their lack of ability to reason.

Just remember one thing. Men built all the civilization, technology and government you see around you today and women can utilize all of these benefited because men give them permission. If one day all men decided to end womens rights there is no force on earth that can stop it. Women's rights exist because you have permission from men to have those rights and those rights are enforced by men.

Your rights exist based off of how many men support your rights. Guess what. Thanks to you. You lost me. I no longer support equal rights. I won't support the rights of a sex that doesn't actively support mine as well.

You have created an a new enemy here. I have real influence in the company I own and will now be slowly transitioning out the few women who hold engineering roles. I will be using the same techniques that private universities use to take affirmative action against non white people so no laws will be broken here. Frankly the liability that feminists have to offer my company aren't worth the risk thanks to you giving me a new assessment and outlook on the whole situation.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#309

Post by Geminidog »

carlisle_ wrote: post #276
kazinator wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> admitting he treats women differently because of their gender OK, I see the misunderstanding. I'm not aware of a colloquial usage of "anecdote" which covers confessions of a behavior, let alone a habitual behavior. (By which I don't intend to deny that the usage is real; it's just not known to me.) An anecdote could certainly include an admission; anything can happen in personal stories. Still, even if your definit…

It's the definition of the word '[in]valid' I was referring to. I'd also say this is the same thing as when I said his anecdotes were not true. What I saw was somebody using biased and bigoted thought to justify their reasoning. I think I understand your reasoning for not wanting to call human experience invalid. I don't think it applies here because of the informal context (casual conversation) and because the anecd…

Except in my opinion I'm not lying. And I never told you how my experiences influenced my hiring policies (they didn't I believed equal opportunity). The best you can claim is that my views are misguided but your preference was to turn it into an attack.

Thank you. I will now redirect your ire to the women that work for my company. All final decisions go through me and guess which sex will need a much higher bar for getting hired? It's against the law to discriminate against women but these policies will now be instigated at my company. No one will know any better because all final decisions go through me and I can easily discard women simply because most of them aren't that good engineers anyway. Rest in peace knowing that my actions are done because of you. You have taken women's rights one step backwards thanks to making an enemy out of me. Good luck rectifying the situation... You don't know who I am or what company I run.

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