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School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

holykaw.alltop.com

11–20 of 73 posts

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#11
post #5

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits ( http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/…

Really? Please don't blame the teachers for this.

This line of reasoning has never made any sense to me -- why does everyone blame the public employees and want to take away their (hardly that great when compared to the rest of the country) salary and benefits? The solution isn't to cut them off at the knees; the solution is to raise everyone else up to the same standards.

If you want someone to blame for this, start with the No Child Left Behind act that forces schools to waste their budgets on meaningless standardized testing, and then penalizes them for it when they do poorly, creating a vicious cycle where a failing school can never become successful because it loses more funding each year. Or you could just go back to the root of the problem and blame the robber barons who, through well-paid lobbyists, have convinced the federal government to dismantle itself and its services year after year since 1980 in the name of the free market. We forgot what happens when corporate influence runs unchecked; we're learning again, and we're learning the hard way. The American experiment is dangerously close to failure.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#12
post #10
post #6

Kudos to the superintendent for doing his job. Whatever validity you think his point has, there's no doubt he'll get a lot of attention thanks to the clever way he's approached the problem. I'm one of those people that, whenever they hear about economic problems, always thinks individuals are responsible. I want to know, am I wrong? Nowhere does it say you need a house with a spare bedroom and a bathroom for each per…

Most parent that can already do send their kids to private school. But we have to admit that public schools often get the short end of the stick in most state budget discussions. Even if parents contribute more (taxes) it ends up not being used properly. Also, the bigger the house usually means the more taxes you pay to the school board ;p

it ends up not being used properly

Here is the key. Plenty of school districts get tons of money yet it never reaches the students. The money ends up stuck somewhere in the administration.

Where I grew up the public school district took tax money and built a huge administration building on prime real estate in the cities posh downtown area. This all was while textbooks were falling apart, school buildings were falling down and there was a already a working administration building in a different part of the city. The new building was dubbed the 'Taj Mahal' by local media and it's still a joke.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#13
post #5

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits ( http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/…

Really? Please don't blame the teachers for this. This line of reasoning has never made any sense to me -- why does everyone blame the public employees and want to take away their (hardly that great when compared to the rest of the country) salary and benefits? The solution isn't to cut them off at the knees; the solution is to raise everyone else up to the same standards. If you want someone to blame for this, start…

I would be interested if that salary included only teachers or also administrators. Some districts have nearly a 1:1 ratio of administrators to teachers. To me that sounds really high.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#14
post #5

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits ( http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/…

The HN community generally accepts that companies should expect to pay good developers well. And, the corollary to that is if you're not willing to pay well, don't expect to get good developers.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#15
post #5

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits ( http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/…

Your argument mixes numbers in a manner that confuses rather than enlightens. If you want to talk about how Michigan's education ranks in the nation and about how Michigan's teachers are paid, you need to compare Apples to Apples. If they're 30th in Education, how are their salaries relative to other teachers?

Likewise, the ranking of 30th... Does that measure the teachers alone or the entire system? If it measures the entire system, how does the funding of $7,000 per student compare to other states? Maybe Michigan is actually doing amazingly well considering its funding. Or maybe not. But that should be the basis of comparison, not comparing their salaries to those of burger flippers in McDonald's.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#16

Not at all what I expected when I saw the title. And I tend to think that spending that amount per student now would result in a future with (a) less prisoners, (b) citizens with the tools to really improve themselves and the world around them, and (c) taxpayers able to pay more.

Indeed. Spending more per prisoner than per student (even when you divide by three, considering students spend ~8 hours a day at school) strikes me as pretty backward. When you spend money, you're investing it. So Michigan is investing nearly twice as much money per prisoner ((40k / 3) / 7k).

Which is a better investment: keeping bad people out of society /now/, or educating the future generations to keep them from being a bad person? I won't argue that the first one shouldn't happen. But should we really be investing more in the short term than in the long term? Especially when the only benefits in the short term are a society that feels (and might be) safer along with enriched privately run prisons and their employees, and along the long term is a sustainable and expanding economy based on, you know, not imprisoning people.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#17
post #5

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits ( http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/…

As a former Michigander with family in education I can say that your comment on pension and retirement is wrong. My mom is about to retire and they just officially TOOK AWAY her retirement.

Teaching is an interesting profession. In fact, teachers are often treated as if they aren't part of the professional class. We call them incompetent, fire the youngest members of the profession first, underpay them, and then public ridicule them.

I would think people who live in the Silicon Valley world would agree: if you want to solve hard problems you need great talent. If you want great talent, you need to attract them, not repel them. Education is a hard problem and we treat teachers like unskilled labor.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#18

Not at all what I expected when I saw the title. And I tend to think that spending that amount per student now would result in a future with (a) less prisoners, (b) citizens with the tools to really improve themselves and the world around them, and (c) taxpayers able to pay more.

Indeed. Spending more per prisoner than per student (even when you divide by three, considering students spend ~8 hours a day at school) strikes me as pretty backward. When you spend money, you're investing it. So Michigan is investing nearly twice as much money per prisoner ((40k / 3) / 7k). Which is a better investment: keeping bad people out of society /now/, or educating the future generations to keep them from b…

They also spend roughly half the year at school (remember weekends, holidays, summer), so you should divide by six.

So, you're now at less per prisoner than per child.

Not that this strikes me as a valid comparison; makes more sense to me that the cost of each should be compared to its own benefits, and to the costs of additional taxation.

Re: School superintendent requests school be turned into prison

#19
post #5

First I agree the cost Michigan pays per prisoner is too high. Texas manages to get by at $13,000 per prisoner Michigan shouldn't need $40,000. But that's for all the expenses to keep them alive (room, board, medical, etc...). So the comparison isn't an accurate one. But let me ask this: Michigan is a state where the average teacher makes $57,958 per year BEFORE benefits ( http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/…

As a former Michigander with family in education I can say that your comment on pension and retirement is wrong. My mom is about to retire and they just officially TOOK AWAY her retirement. Teaching is an interesting profession. In fact, teachers are often treated as if they aren't part of the professional class. We call them incompetent, fire the youngest members of the profession first, underpay them, and then publ…

> In fact, teachers are often treated as if they aren't part of the professional class.

They're not. Professionals are liable for malpractice.

> fire the youngest members of the profession first

That's what the teacher's unions demanded in negotation, so if you think that it's wrong....

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