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America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

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891–900 of 961 posts

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We prohibit slavery on the exact same basis as we recognize the immorality of taxation. The human instinct for territory leads to slavery. > We know that the arguments are not logical Who is we? > The same basis we rejected the last system. No one has rejected taxation as a concept other than yourself. > Consent cannot be obtained through coercion. By that definition, all laws are coercive, as they all contain puni…

> The human instinct for territory leads to slavery. Negative. Territory is things, not people. > By that definition, all laws are coercive, as they all contain punitive measures. This is not true. You’ve neglected to consider laws that prohibit without specifying consequences for violation. You’re also neglecting to consider laws against coercion. > In fact, it can be extrapolated that all of society is coercive, as…

> Negative. Territory is things, not people.

It is also a human instinct to treat people as things. Thus, we appear to be creating a society that can override baser instincts. Anti-propertarians would thus be claiming to transcend those instincts in the name of greater justice, in the same nature as you are claiming to transcend this instincts to abolish taxation.

> You’ve neglected to consider laws that prohibit without specifying consequences for violation.

Those laws are clearly in the minority.

> Now you’re understanding why a “social contract” can’t be used to justify violating someone’s rights.

Correct, and it means that your problem is with the whole of the social contract, and taxation is but a fraction of what it entails.

> You’re arguing against it with me right here.

I argue because I choose to, not because it actually reveals anything about my actual opinions or convictions.

> roads predate the government that expropriated them from the commons.

Much like private property.

> I shouldn’t need permission from bureaucrats to use the roads.

Then you are stealing from the actual parties who built those roads and maintain them.

> You’re losing the plot.

Tu quoque.

> Bureaucrats taxing and spending necessarily means that I’m competing, with bureaucrats, for goods, while the bureaucrats are using my own money to compete with me.

Yes, yes, the issue of private competition with public services does exist. All of which can be explored without denying the fundamental principle of taxation, as aforementioned ad nauseam.

> So you agree that I do not have the right of exit.

Yes, but you believe in it for the wrong reasons.

> [citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_taxless_countries

> No, it is not.

Sure it is. Do you claim to be able to protect it if a foreign power assaults it? Can you take on an entire criminal cartel?

> Rent is not a unilateral transaction, neither is it extortion.

Rent is unilaterally determined by the rentier, who establishes a coercive rent regime due to monopoly ownership over the property in question. Thus, it is extortion because the other party is inherently at a disadvantage.

> You think the government is an alternative to might makes right? Interesting.

Even most minarchists who want only a night-watchman state will agree upon the necessity of court systems and law enforcement to enforce contracts. You are free to advance an alternative, if you'd like.

> Unowned property becomes owned through homesteading, owned property changes hands through voluntary transfer.

Homesteading is established through force, and voluntary transfer exist along relations that are backed by the violent force that is society.

> Force is a primary means of retaining property when someone attempts to take it from the owner.

Because in a Hobbesian state of nature all property is up for grabs, property is inherently in need of protection, and thus force is always on the table.

> I’ve made a solid case that does not rely on Proudhon

It certainly doesn't, but your case lives in the same moral universe as Proudhon's does, and has about as much relation to reality as his.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 30 year rate has been dropping at 2% every decade for the last 5 decades at a steady rate[0]. If the fed attempts to taper inflation by increasing the interest rate above the 30 year, we will hit a yield curve inversion and trigger another recession, just like every previous recession in the past 50 years. So no, we can't go back to 2 or 3. And by 2030, we can't even stay at 0. The big problem with bottom up is t…

Yeah, that's sort of the conclusion I keep coming to. If I understand correctly, I'm assuming that when you say that bottom up triggers inflation, you're referring to price inflation / core CPI / any of the other 20 measures of inflation in physical consumable goods required for survival. Whereas top down (as we have been doing because fed and treasury can't seem to work together) tends to keep price levels for core…

So the way I see this going is in any of these scenarios

1. Negative rates. All pretext is lost.

2. Repeat of Japan. Government ends up owning half of the stock market.

3. Mild to extreme bottom-up during a planned crash of assets. In this path you will see the stock market crash at the same time inflation soars.

Number three is the hardest but also the one that will end up with the best productivity. When you see stories like Bill Gates being the largest private farmowner[0], you might see it as an ominous warning that the rich are hedging this possibility and are making sure they end up okay.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-land-portfolio-bi...

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The human instinct for territory leads to slavery. Negative. Territory is things, not people. > By that definition, all laws are coercive, as they all contain punitive measures. This is not true. You’ve neglected to consider laws that prohibit without specifying consequences for violation. You’re also neglecting to consider laws against coercion. > In fact, it can be extrapolated that all of society is coercive, as…

> Negative. Territory is things, not people. It is also a human instinct to treat people as things. Thus, we appear to be creating a society that can override baser instincts. Anti-propertarians would thus be claiming to transcend those instincts in the name of greater justice, in the same nature as you are claiming to transcend this instincts to abolish taxation. > You’ve neglected to consider laws that prohibit wit…

Property/territoriality is not an instinct to treat people as things.

Your desire to override my baser instincts is misplaced. Concentrate on overriding your own base instincts, then you will be less inclined to expropriate from people and redistribute the wealth of others according to your subjective preferences.

I’m glad you’ve conceded that coercion is not a necessary component of laws.

It is true that private property also predates the government.

I’m glad you’ve conceded your earlier point about the right of exit.

You’ve yet to establish the necessity of taxation.

Rent is not unilaterally determined by the rentier. Its negotiated between the rentier and the renter.

How do you describe a government in a way that the government isn’t an instance of “might makes right”?

Homesteading is not established by force.

Voluntary exchange cuts across relations that are violently enforced by society.

Hobbes was mistaken about a state of nature.

Your fixation on Proudhon is detracting from your efforts to reply to my arguments.

Finally, property doesn’t require the state because property can exist in the absence of a state. The fact that states can expropriate people is the basis for this entire argument. Essentially you’re saying if I didn’t have a state expropriating me, I’d have a state expropriating me. Well, who is expropriating the state? Why not?

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#894
post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how the enslaved population gets counted for calculating income equality. If you’re legally someone else’s property, isn’t your economic inequality to that person immeasurably high? Not a number?

Slaves don't have income. It'd be like asking if monks in a monastery are experiencing "income inequality"—and how much? The question itself is nonsense.

Surely we can agree that zero is not equal to any number greater than zero? On that basis we can easily factor slavery into our inequality calculations.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#895

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The return on capital is always greater than the return on labor. Piketty does a great data driven analysis on this in his book Capital in the 21st century. This phenomenon was occurring long before the US was even a glimmer.

I've never understood why the capital gains tax is lower than the labor tax. The labor tax is theoretically adding value to the economy while capital gains is basically money you made because you had money. It seems to me it should be the opposite if you want a productive economy, encourage more people to put their money to work instead of playing games in the market.

> The labor tax is theoretically adding value to the economy while capital gains is basically money you made because you had money.

Capital adds value to the economy too, thats why people will pay to rent it.

> I've never understood why the capital gains tax is lower than the labor tax.

One good reason is that if the capital gains tax is higher than the marginal profit, then that business doesn’t exist. If we taxed capital at the rate that we tax labor, there would be one or two ultra-hyper-wealthy people who employed everyone, and the rest of us would be serfs working for bezos or the government, or on public assistance.

> It seems to me it should be the opposite if you want a productive economy, encourage more people to put their money to work instead of playing games in the market.

Investing your money is putting it to work, that is precisely why it earns a return.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#896

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50T looks about right according to this chart: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distr...

That chart doesn’t strengthen your point. What (direct) action did those 1% take that generated 50T?

Wise capital allocation.

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#897
post #99
post #2

Inequality seems to be a completely pointless buzzword to me. The only thing that matters is if there are more or less poor people, and how poor are those people compared to similar percentiles in the past. It shouldn't matter how rich the richest people on earth are. I really love seeing people on the Internet try to convince themselves that because Bezos or Musk are worth $100B, they must be stealing it from poor p…

> The only thing that matters is if there are more or less poor people Up to a point I definitely agree with this, but the issue with some people being billionaires is not that they can drive around in Cadillacs made of gold, it's that they can and do control government policies, and use that power to the detriment of common people.

So do we agree the problem is the ability of some people to control government policies?

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#898

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nearly-40-of-americans-cant-cov...

I've known many people like that. They weren't poor, they just overspent their income. It's common to be middle class and have no money.

I think the headline is misleading. Only 12 percent flatly said they couldn't pay for the expense. The 40 percent includes everyone who would take on debt and pay it off over time (i.e. not immediately in the next cc statement), or else sell something. People who choose to live right at their level of income would included, regardless how high that income is, and even when it is possible for them to make adjustments when surprises come along.

The survey also found 75 percent of people responded they were living comfortably or "doing ok".

Re: America's 1% Has Taken $50T From the Bottom 90%

#900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That chart doesn’t strengthen your point. What (direct) action did those 1% take that generated 50T?

Wise capital allocation.

So they didn’t generate that money... whatever they allocated it to did.
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