The way that CT is explained to engineers here is what tech architects do every day, and with the rigour of formalisms that would help clarify a lot of the muddled thinking some architects suffer from. Arguably, an architect is someone who uses categories and relationships between them to solve and optimize for aggregate behaviour and outcomes. I watched the first guest lecture, which was very good. I'm not a mathema…
I guess, but I'm reminded of the promises made for UML, where in the end it just introduced some standard conventions for whiteboard diagrams. Abstract, domain-independent formalisms can make ideas harder to understand than domain-specific, concrete examples. With category theory, I'm not seeing examples of the formalism paying off that would justify the endeavor.
Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
21–30 of 33 posts
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
This does not answer my question. The material in the first book is all well-known. A standard reference is Reed and Simon's Methods of Modern Mathematical Physics . Categories don't gain you anything there, and in any case it's tangentially relevant to most work in harmonic analysis and probabiility. The second book is not relevant at all. Just because you can produce books on analysis where someone uses the word "c…
(Funny that you mentioned "a working mathematician.") Anyway, wouldn't it be nice to really understand, on some (higher, admittedly) level, what it is that you are actually doing? Functors and all...
I find it bizarre that you (and others – I don't mean to pick on you) seem to think that a translation to category theoretic language is necessary (and sufficient?) to understand what one is actually doing. Do the many professional mathematicians who prove important theorems in functional analysis today without bothering to learn this language not actually understand what they are doing [0]? But the undergraduate who reads Helemskii does? This seems like an absurd notion of what it means to actually understand a subject.
[0] See, for example, many of the papers noted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariant_subspace_problem
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#23I always groan when I see posts on HN with grandiose claims about category theory, like this one. I think it is actively harmful to propagate pseudo-mathematical claims like the those, for example, found in the slides of Guest Lecture 1: >>> It’s touched or greatly influenced all corners of mathematics. >>> It’s become a gateway to learning mathematics. And from the audio of the lecture (paraphrasing): >>> Category t…
It's a bit of a white lie but I don't see it being harmful to claim that. It is increasingly becoming true. Lots of fields are adopting CT. And being taught CT earlier on in the process would provide a useful framework for building upon future knowledge. Mathematics seems to have 10 different names for the same concept depending on which field you are in. CT provides a common vocabulary.
I do.
Category theory is something that appeals to some mathematicians, and not to others. Those who it doesn't appeal to are likely to wind up in fields like combinatorics, functional analysis, numerical analysis, and so on. If you inflict category theory prematurely on the latter group, people who might have proven quite talented will be driven away from mathematics.
And I feel this quite personally. I left mathematics for other reasons. But still, had I had to deal with category theory first, I'd have never gone into mathematics in the first place.
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#24I always groan when I see posts on HN with grandiose claims about category theory, like this one. I think it is actively harmful to propagate pseudo-mathematical claims like the those, for example, found in the slides of Guest Lecture 1: >>> It’s touched or greatly influenced all corners of mathematics. >>> It’s become a gateway to learning mathematics. And from the audio of the lecture (paraphrasing): >>> Category t…
They might not think of it consciously, but they sure exploit and use properties of sets, rings, groups, and so on all the time in their calculations...
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
(Funny that you mentioned "a working mathematician.") Anyway, wouldn't it be nice to really understand, on some (higher, admittedly) level, what it is that you are actually doing? Functors and all...
But this is exactly my objection. Returning to your example, I don't think working through Helemskii's book helps one really understand functional analysis relative to a well-written standard treatment. What interesting problems does this viewpoint permit a probabilist or harmonic analyst to solve that the standard approach does not? What theorems does it enable? I find it bizarre that you (and others – I don't mean…
K-theory and K-homology have become indispensable tools in operator theory; there is even a bivariant functor 𝐾𝐾(−,−) from the category of C-algebras to the category of abelian groups relating the two constructions, and many deep theorems can be subsumed in the assertion that there is a category whose objects are C-algebras and whose morphism spaces are given by 𝐾𝐾(𝐴,𝐵). Cyclic homology and cohomology has also become extremely relevant to the interface between analysis and topology.
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#26I always groan when I see posts on HN with grandiose claims about category theory, like this one. I think it is actively harmful to propagate pseudo-mathematical claims like the those, for example, found in the slides of Guest Lecture 1: >>> It’s touched or greatly influenced all corners of mathematics. >>> It’s become a gateway to learning mathematics. And from the audio of the lecture (paraphrasing): >>> Category t…
Personally, I wouldn't be that skeptical. By its very nature CT as a foundational theory and is relevant to, and has at least in that sense indeed touched, all corners of mathematics. (Mathematicians had the same skepticism about Set Theory when it first appeared.) Especially the "theoretical" (pure) math. So, sure, "you can read the entire thing without it, with no real loss", but this only says something about the…
It comes as no surprise that category theorists make this kind of argument for their own importance. However many corners of mathematics are filled with mathematicians who disagree. Take 100 random people who work in some combination of combinatorics, functional analysis and probability theory. I'd bet that most have never used category theory in a publication. And this doesn't just apply to a few luddites. Consider someone like Terry Tao. He knows some category theory, of course. But you'll have to look long and hard for any paper of his that uses it, or any explanation based on it.
And when you step outside of mathematics to fields that use mathematics heavily, you'll find that applications get harder to find. When you listen to category theorists, you get the impression that category theory is central to programming. Haskell and Scala in particular make good use of category theory. But is that how things work in the real world?
Here is an experiment. Take 100 random working programmers. Ask them if they have ever used category theory to write any programs. You might find 1, probably not 2. Go look at https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/. No programming language in the top 20 even has good support for category theoretical ideas. (The top one that does is Julia at #29.)
Go outside of programming to something like engineering and it becomes even harder to find anyone who thinks that category theory is relevant to their lives.
I came close to a PhD in math, and have multiple papers. My experience is that I needed to learn category theory for some required courses, and otherwise it had no relevance to anything of interest to me. And I do not believe that my experience in that is particularly atypical.
If you disagree, go learn about some fields like numerical analysis, combinatorics, cryptography, and number theory. Sure, for every field you can find evangelicalists who try to apply category theory. Ignore them, find out what the mainstream research uses. Guess what? You WON'T find that people use the language of category theory. You also won't find many practitioners who think that recasting what they are doing in terms of category theory is very useful. You may think that category theory is required to understand those topics, but the people who demonstrably do understand those topics well disagree. I'm going to go with the subject matter experts self-assessment over yours here!
In short, category theory's domination of mathematics is far less sweeping than adherents like you would have us believe.
I get it. From where you stand, you only see and are interested in areas where category theory matters. To you it looks dominant. But that is an illusion. In fact it is extremely similar to another illusion that I discussed in http://www.dtc.umn.edu/~odlyzko/doc/metcalfe.pdf:
Metcalfe’s Law is intuitively appealing, since our personal estimate of the size of a network is based on the uptake of that network among friends and family. Our derived value also varies directly with that metric. We therefore see a linear relationship between the perceived size and value of that network.
In both cases you get a biased view that causes things of personal interest to you to look more universal than they truly are.
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#27I always groan when I see posts on HN with grandiose claims about category theory, like this one. I think it is actively harmful to propagate pseudo-mathematical claims like the those, for example, found in the slides of Guest Lecture 1: >>> It’s touched or greatly influenced all corners of mathematics. >>> It’s become a gateway to learning mathematics. And from the audio of the lecture (paraphrasing): >>> Category t…
> These statements are simply false. The vast majority of pure mathematics research done today does not involve category theory at all, and does not benefit from it. An even greater majority (like 99%+) of mathematics done in industry and in national labs does not involve category theory. Numerical analysis, probability, statistics, partial differential equations, dynamical systems, harmonic analysis, even lots of mo…
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#28I always groan when I see posts on HN with grandiose claims about category theory, like this one. I think it is actively harmful to propagate pseudo-mathematical claims like the those, for example, found in the slides of Guest Lecture 1: >>> It’s touched or greatly influenced all corners of mathematics. >>> It’s become a gateway to learning mathematics. And from the audio of the lecture (paraphrasing): >>> Category t…
And I'm pretty sure that if I cherry-picked my credits right, the same would have happened in the Phd.
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#29I always groan when I see posts on HN with grandiose claims about category theory, like this one. I think it is actively harmful to propagate pseudo-mathematical claims like the those, for example, found in the slides of Guest Lecture 1: >>> It’s touched or greatly influenced all corners of mathematics. >>> It’s become a gateway to learning mathematics. And from the audio of the lecture (paraphrasing): >>> Category t…
Re: Applied Compositional Thinking for Engineers
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a bit of a white lie but I don't see it being harmful to claim that. It is increasingly becoming true. Lots of fields are adopting CT. And being taught CT earlier on in the process would provide a useful framework for building upon future knowledge. Mathematics seems to have 10 different names for the same concept depending on which field you are in. CT provides a common vocabulary.
It's a bit of a white lie but I don't see it being harmful to claim that. It is increasingly becoming true. I do. Category theory is something that appeals to some mathematicians, and not to others. Those who it doesn't appeal to are likely to wind up in fields like combinatorics, functional analysis, numerical analysis, and so on. If you inflict category theory prematurely on the latter group, people who might have…
Preferences.
"appeals to some, and not others" - this speaks to the need to normalize the abandonment/minimization of preferences. The harm you describe is self-inflicted limitation due to clinging to preferences. I accidentally abandoned my preferences that lie beyond the meeting of my needs, ie. abandoning preferences for how to meet them. This has led me to realize most, if not all preferences, stem from a combination of arbitrary choices made when young and choices born out of trauma. While there exists preferences with biological/physiological origins, such as those that may have developed around allergies, any conditioned reactions to them are still likely unnecessary. I don't need to feel queasy from smelling something rotten to know it's rotten and to avoid it.
Do you want help with disengaging these means of self-limitation?