The Ghost in the MP3 (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#11

Post by seanalexander » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #4

one interesting artifact of MP3s in pop music is that symbols are transformed from a clean Crashhhhhhhhhhh, to a sound like a dog slurping water. However like Jpeg this is a tradeoff that we are used to. in the same way that tape has frequency inbalance, records just sound shit (sorry I know you like it, but they really don't sound better. they are great for evoking a feeling, but not for fidelity. Its lomo but for s…

> I don't like the distortion that 128k mp3 introduces, but I imagine that in years to come it'll become a fetish for certain types of audiophile

This hasn't happened in almost 30 years of mp3s being a household format. The only feeling low resolution media evokes is frustration.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#12

Post by enriquto » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

8bitsrule wrote: post #2

"I am planning a series of related compositions, constructed first from the other songs involved in the listening tests, but then probing the space of MP3 compression in different ways, attempting to highlight even more explicitly the filtering effect of this codec.... Composing with these sounds and injecting them back into contemporary listening spaces is one possible act of resistance, one available mode of cultur…

> We are so familiar with our usual collection of instrumental timbres ... we have assumed that this galaxy is the whole universe.

Some references you may enjoy:

* Music: a Mathematical Offering, Dave Benson. Explains the mathematical theory of how to compute the timbre of an instrument given its shape. Also how the timbre of the instruments determines harmony.

* Tuning, timbre, spectrum, scale, William Sethares. A deep exploration of the relationship between timbre and harmony. It starts by exhibiting a (synthetic) instrument whose octaves are dissonant, and the music that you can do with it. Then it doubles down on this idea to obtain a lot of fun.

* The Topos of Music, Guerino Mazzola. Really hardcore mathematical music theory, too scary for simple people like me.

EDIT: regarding telescopes for seeing timbre... have you ever seen an spectrogram? You can install a spectrogram app in your phone and see the spectra of sounds around you. There's a lot of things! My favorite is opening a rusty old door.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#13

Post by dbatten » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:45 PM UTC

seanalexander wrote: post #11

KaiserPro wrote: post #4

one interesting artifact of MP3s in pop music is that symbols are transformed from a clean Crashhhhhhhhhhh, to a sound like a dog slurping water. However like Jpeg this is a tradeoff that we are used to. in the same way that tape has frequency inbalance, records just sound shit (sorry I know you like it, but they really don't sound better. they are great for evoking a feeling, but not for fidelity. Its lomo but for s…

> I don't like the distortion that 128k mp3 introduces, but I imagine that in years to come it'll become a fetish for certain types of audiophile This hasn't happened in almost 30 years of mp3s being a household format. The only feeling low resolution media evokes is frustration.

I think the implication was that, once mp3 is no longer a household format, there will be a certain type of person who feels a nostalgia for the "sound" of mp3s, maybe even advocating that it was "better" in some way than the sound of whatever comes next...

This is basically what's happened with vinyl records at this point, right? People have a nostalgia for their sound, even though by any scientific or technical measure a vinyl record represents music/sound less faithfully than, for example, lossless CD audio...

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#14

Post by nayuki » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

The author posts clips like "Example 1. White, Pink, and Brown Noise - Uncompressed", but the audio files are hosted on SoundCloud. My experience on SoundCloud is that no matter what format you upload as, they always stream it down to you as a 128 kb/s MP3 or something like that. I think the author is better off self-hosting the WAV files?

> Listening tests, primarily designed by and for western-european men, and using the music they liked, were used to refine the encoder.

> As previously stated, the MP3 codec was refined using listening tests designed by european audio engineers and featuring the music they chose. In a sense, each of these songs acts as a resonant filter for every file encoded in the MP3 format.

Through a simple accusation of racial bias, the author seeks to undermine the technical work that went into the development of the MP3 codec.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#15

Post by danbolt » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

nayuki wrote: post #14

The author posts clips like "Example 1. White, Pink, and Brown Noise - Uncompressed", but the audio files are hosted on SoundCloud. My experience on SoundCloud is that no matter what format you upload as, they always stream it down to you as a 128 kb/s MP3 or something like that. I think the author is better off self-hosting the WAV files? > Listening tests, primarily designed by and for western-european men, and usi…

I didn't really get that impression that the author was seeking to do that, to be honest. I think he was interested in the context developing the codec and how that influences the media that can be produced/expressed.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#16

Post by 1996 » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

dbatten wrote: post #13

seanalexander wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like the distortion that 128k mp3 introduces, but I imagine that in years to come it'll become a fetish for certain types of audiophile This hasn't happened in almost 30 years of mp3s being a household format. The only feeling low resolution media evokes is frustration.

I think the implication was that, once mp3 is no longer a household format, there will be a certain type of person who feels a nostalgia for the "sound" of mp3s, maybe even advocating that it was "better" in some way than the sound of whatever comes next... This is basically what's happened with vinyl records at this point, right? People have a nostalgia for their sound, even though by any scientific or technical mea…

As seen in the keyboard space! Try the latest XPS 15: low travel yet perfect feedback, better than mechanical keyboards!

While we now have better technology, people prefer what they are familiar with.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#17

Post by fao_ » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

nayuki wrote: post #14

The author posts clips like "Example 1. White, Pink, and Brown Noise - Uncompressed", but the audio files are hosted on SoundCloud. My experience on SoundCloud is that no matter what format you upload as, they always stream it down to you as a 128 kb/s MP3 or something like that. I think the author is better off self-hosting the WAV files? > Listening tests, primarily designed by and for western-european men, and usi…

> Through a simple accusation of racial bias, the author seeks to undermine the technical work that went into the development of the MP3 codec.

I'm always surprised when pointing out that something has design limits, and often limits imposed by racial bias in testing, is seen as such an evil thing. Acknowledging the limits is the first part of making use of something properly, wouldn't you say? Understanding that MP3 is likely (Although it would have to be confirmed via testing) to have poorer encoding on non-white artforms is important to choosing a media encoding, no?

I'm not sure how acknowledging the limits they created is "undermining the work that went into it", can you explain why you feel that is the case?

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#18

Post by hctaw » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #6

Wow this is really fascinating. I’ve seen a lot of support for FLAC but I’ve never been able to get an iPhone or iPod to read them. I wonder why flac and other high end lossless file formats are not supported.

Lossless is only useful as an archival or intermediary format during production/recording where you can't tolerate lossy encoding.

For listening purposes lossy codecs are all capable of being perceptually lossless for trained or untrained listeners, including MP3. MP3 gets a bad rap because low bitrate mp3 does sound awful. 320kbps or higher is sufficient for 99% of listeners, including audiophiles. Most listeners can't pass a double blind study in pristine conditions, let alone average ones.

It's a lot like 192kHz 32 bit recordings. 96kHz audio bandwidth and almost 200dB of SNR has a purpose, but that purpose is not for day to day listening. Your ears, brain, speakers and amplifiers cannot reproduce or perceive the extra information.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#19

Post by cardamomo » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

nayuki wrote: post #14

The author posts clips like "Example 1. White, Pink, and Brown Noise - Uncompressed", but the audio files are hosted on SoundCloud. My experience on SoundCloud is that no matter what format you upload as, they always stream it down to you as a 128 kb/s MP3 or something like that. I think the author is better off self-hosting the WAV files? > Listening tests, primarily designed by and for western-european men, and usi…

The ways in which biases can be encoded in an algorithm are not trivial. The author takes pains to describe how the lossiness of MP3 encoding is audible. The codec's authors made aesthetic decisions, shaped by their own taste, to determine what sounds could be acceptably removed from the audio. That should be a significant point in almost any discussion of MP3. The author of this piece does not, however, challenge the technical merit of the codec, as you claim. Instead, its biases are simply acknowledged and plainly described.

Re: The Ghost in the MP3 (2014)

#20

Post by maxton » Fri, Feb 12, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #6

Wow this is really fascinating. I’ve seen a lot of support for FLAC but I’ve never been able to get an iPhone or iPod to read them. I wonder why flac and other high end lossless file formats are not supported.

iOS has supported ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Codec), I think since day one, but at least for a long while. You can convert FLACs to ALAC without any loss in quality obviously, but the coding tends to be a bit more efficient for FLAC.