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“I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

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Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on board with the above poster, and you dismissing what they're saying as "deliberately ignorant" because it doesn't jive with your world view is a sad tactic to use when discussing something. As somebody who's listed products on the AWS marketplace, when you "subscribe" to a product you give them your information as due course. This is obvious, spelled out, and known across all the marketplaces. So I'll assume t…

This is the first time I've heard about subscribing being a privacy violation, so no, this is not "obvious."

This isn't a big hard to read document: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/support/legal/marketplace-...

3a spells out what you're agreeing to share with the publisher of the product in the marketplace when you subscribe to it.

Additionally the listings each link to their respective privacy policy right underneath the subscribe button, plainly in view above the fold.

Finally, I've just attempted to subscribe to "Ubuntu Server" in the Azure Marketplace to see what it looks like, and it shows you a form with the information it's going to share with Ubuntu on the screen for you to modify before subscribing! So it seems like you arguing this isn't "obvious" is in bad faith, because it's obvious for any reasonable person who's actually used the marketplace.

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#252
post #17
post #8

The register article on this https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/11/microsoft_azure_ubunt... has responses from Canonical and MS, which shed a bit more light on the situation. The Canonical quote is the most illuminating :- "As per the Azure T&Cs, Microsoft shares with Canonical, the publisher of Ubuntu, the contact details of developers launching Ubuntu instances on Azure. These contact details are held in Canonical…

I think the Marketplace quote is worth noting too: >A look at the terms for the Azure Marketplace throws up this sentence: "If you purchase or use a Marketplace Offering, we may share with the Publisher of such Offering your contact information and details about the transaction and your usage." So the publisher of something on their Marketplace gets some information. This doesn't seem 'that' weird (well the linked in…

In this case it's not obvious that you're participating in a "marketplace". Look at the screenshot of VM creation:

https://twitter.com/LucaBongiorni/status/1359737285118410752

If we accept that the Ubuntu image is a marketing device then this screen is using dark patterns.

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The code is gratis. Although, partnership deals tend to go beyond simply sharing code, and into the realm of dedicating time and resources to working with each other.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn Azure was paid (either money or developer time) and this is happening for other products. I would think twice before using Azure if I was concerned about my usage being shared.

It is. For example I've warned others about the eula shipped with Dell systems with Linux (Ubuntu) on them for similar reasons... and encourage people to do their own installion of images (containerized or otherwise).

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#254
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction here is when it’s a marketplace. You buy a product from a third-party vendor on Amazon. Amazon sends details of your purchase to the third-party vendor for fulfillment. Cool.

I don't know how I feel about that. Am I doing business with Amazon or the third party? If it's the third party, I want it to be crystal clear that they are the ones who will get my info. And if it's not crystal clear and I find out and their response is "oops, you weren't really supposed to notice that"... Again, think of the grocery store example: you go in, there is a Boar's Head counter where they sell sandwiches…

Why is it OK for "Grocery Store" to see your data, but not "Boar's Head"? Corporations aren't people. The boundaries are imagianry?

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#255
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, to me the MS statement is the most illuminating and I'm guessing that Canonical is getting some grumpy calls from Microsoft. This is the last part of the Microsoft statement: "Our terms with our publishers allow them to provide customers with implementation and technical support for their products but restricts them from using contact details for marketing purposes" Canonical then tells us that this person…

I guess I don't understand the quote from Microsoft's statement. Canonical provides "implementation and technical support," right? But they're not allowed to use user data from Microsoft to market those services? How else would that data even be useful for Canonical's "implementation and technical support" services?

> But they're not allowed to use user data from Microsoft to market those services? How else would that data even be useful for Canonical's "implementation and technical support" services?

The data on who was doing what would be useful for providing implementation and technical support to people who has already contracted with Canonical for those services, both for providing the service and, depending on price structure, possibly for billing.

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know that you can't trust Microsoft, but a lot of people blindly trust Canonical just because they create a Linux distro. I haven't trusted Canonical since I noticed their pattern of creating competing alternatives to new Linux standards instead of helping them (Mir & Wayland, Snap & Flatpack, Unity & Gnome 3). It'd be one thing if they were bringing better ideas and long-term support to their alternatives, bu…

Yeah, stuff like this is why I only treat Ubuntu as a stepping stone. I even tried to install Debian while I'm still not really used to Linux, but the graphics card immediately crapped itself on boot, so it will have to wait...

> tried to install Debian […] but the graphics card immediately crapped itself on boot

https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs/

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BSD has jails which are roughly equivalent to Docker and are older and more stable tech. I am also a big proponent of not needing Docker nearly as much as most people seem to think it's needed. Sure, if your stack revolves around a custom-compiled nginx version downloaded off some guy's FTP site then Docker is nice, but also why does your stack revolve around a custom-compiled nginx version downloaded off some guy's…

For people who use docker at work, avoiding it is simply not possible. Our stack revolves around images (not necessarily docker), so *bsds are dead in the water for me. Additionally, orchestrating is simplified with docker-compose vs managing many jails. I used to manage freebsd jails via cli in FreeNAS, but orchestration with docker-compose is much easier and trackable in git. Transferring between machines is as eas…

I agree with your arguments in that if your stack is already built on Docker it's a lot to ask to move to a different system. But if you are choosing a new stack for a new project, why not look at alternatives to Docker? There are many and jails is a good one. Granted, I haven't looked much at orchestration tools for jails.

As far as do you need Docker in the first place? Well maybe. One of my favorite orchestration and deployment systems I built was based on packaging everything as .deb files and running our own apt repo. Since all workstations ran Ubuntu and all servers ran Ubuntu getting our system up and running was as easy as adding our custom repo and running `apt-get install our-custom-project`. apt is great for resolving dependencies and this way we don't end up with a mess of files all over the place. Plus this way we got all the benefits of not having to update every container when a libssl update was required. Just run `apt-get update && apt-get (dist-)upgrade` and suddenly you are fully up to date and restarted.

Orchestration on this system was accomplished by using puppet to set up the custom repo, install the packages, install all the current config files for the system services as well as our own, and starting all the services in order. Reproducible to the point where when one of our servers (we had a few pieces of beefy physical hardware) blew up, we simply set up a new one, ran the puppet manifests and were back to full capacity within like an hour. Mind you this was back in 2010-2012 and tooling has only gotten better since.

This type of thing also allows you to nicely package any custom versions of software you want as well. Want a custom build of nginx? Go run the script that builds it and makes a .deb out of it, then upload to your repo. You aren't relying on some guy with a blog post to keep his server up. You aren't even affected by GitHub going down if you don't host your apt repo there. Or use it out of a PPA someone else maintains. But there is zero need to wget/make/make install with this setup. You aren't doing reproducible builds because it's a build once, run everywhere system. And it makes you very directly consider what your dependencies are. Do you really need that unmaintained library written in an esoteric language that requires a SPARC to compile? Docker allows you to hide bad dependencies behind the idea that they are inside a container so the harm they can cause is limited and the headache is localized. But that just treats symptoms, not the problem.

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#258
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He stated the LinkedIn profile was under a different email (makes sense, not corporate one). I'd guess 1: name+company matching was enough.

Isn't that even possibly illegal? I mean contacting someone on a personal channel for unsolicited B2B sales?

How is LinkedIn a "personal" channel, and why would it be illegal anyway? Direct marketing isn't illegal.

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#259
post #40

As someone who works in tech sales - the real bullshit here is that this is some right-out-of-college 22 y/o entry level sales person (SDR) who was likely told to to take this list and message everyone on linkedin 1x1. The negative impact of this goes on his shoulders where the positive responses from this get passed off to someone else who is outside the blast radius. Stuff like this is the norm when sales is viewed…

I think it really is a disgrace that his photo and name are out there linked to this. It's most likely not his fault.

Re: “I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

#260
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I don't understand the quote from Microsoft's statement. Canonical provides "implementation and technical support," right? But they're not allowed to use user data from Microsoft to market those services? How else would that data even be useful for Canonical's "implementation and technical support" services?

By waiting for someone to reach out for "implementation and technical support," at which point Canonical already has the data they need to investigate deeper? Not that that's even great, because 99% of the people who spin up a service will never contact Canonical and shouldn't have their info shared.

Yeah, I thought about that possibility, but I'm skeptical because the usefulness of Canonical getting that data directly from Microsoft seems really minimal. Whatever data Microsoft is collecting from its clients (I'd think it's at most metadata about base images, instance types, and maybe number of instances and usage patterns) should be trivial for those clients to provide to Canonical, if needed, if and when they initiate a support contract.
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