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“Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

economist.com

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Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#21

Post by zdragnar »

draklor40 wrote: post #14

By the common understanding of the word, it is not. Just as “homicide” means killing a person and “suicide” means killing yourself, “genocide” means killing a people. China’s persecution of the Uyghurs is horrific: it has locked up perhaps 1m of them in prison camps, which it naturally mislabels “vocational training centres”. It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. - Yes, Guardi…

As defined in the Geneva convention, genocide also includes forced sterilisation and removal of children from parents.

Also, what do you expect the end result of mass incarceration in prison camps to be, other than mass graves?

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#22

Post by mytailorisrich »

Tomte wrote: post #2

No, it isn't. From the article: > It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. Not slaughtering them makes no difference to whether it's genocide. Genocide is about "intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group". Sterilizing them counts. As would snatching the children of that group and placing them in families of your own group (to give an exam…

Forced sterilisations have unfortunately happened all over China as a result of the One Child policy. To my knowledge that has occurred across the board and no ethnic group was ever specifically targeted. In fact under the One Child policy minorities have the right to have more children than the Han majority, and they do have more children. So reporting that "some forced sterilisations" have occurred is not really significant in itself.

Likewise, when it said that the birth rate has significantly dropped I think it would be useful to see figures (if they exist) on the average number of children per woman in the region because, again, China has a pretty strict birth control national policy and that would allow to see how it was enforced in Xinjiang before versus now. The figures quoted in an article I quickly found through Google [1] suggest that the One Child policy (even with recent relaxation) was not strictly enforced and that the birth rate was much higher than it should have been under national policy. If so that could mean that they were cut some slack and have now been brought in line with the rest of the country. Of course this is from the Golbal Times, an official Chinese organisation, so I do not know how reliable the figures are.

[1] https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212073.shtml

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#23

Post by veidr »

jjgreen wrote: post #3
Tomte wrote: post #2

No, it isn't. From the article: > It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. Not slaughtering them makes no difference to whether it's genocide. Genocide is about "intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group". Sterilizing them counts. As would snatching the children of that group and placing them in families of your own group (to give an exam…

Not saying that you're wrong -- would you include the US eugenics programs [1] or the Australian forced adoptions [2] in that? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Absolutely yes, clearly, for the US eugenics programs.

(I don't know much about the Australian example, so won't comment on that, other than to say that a cursory search that seems to also imply UM YES)

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#24

Post by Clewza313 »

zdragnar wrote: post #21
draklor40 wrote: post #14

By the common understanding of the word, it is not. Just as “homicide” means killing a person and “suicide” means killing yourself, “genocide” means killing a people. China’s persecution of the Uyghurs is horrific: it has locked up perhaps 1m of them in prison camps, which it naturally mislabels “vocational training centres”. It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. - Yes, Guardi…

As defined in the Geneva convention, genocide also includes forced sterilisation and removal of children from parents. Also, what do you expect the end result of mass incarceration in prison camps to be, other than mass graves?

These aren't extermination camps, people are eventually being released from them. Their notional aim is re-education and making people genuinely love Big Brother/the Communist Party, but I doubt the deciders are naive enough to believe that will actually happen. Instead, it's sufficient that the detainees become broken, intimidated and compliant.

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#25

Post by veidr »

draklor40 wrote: post #14

By the common understanding of the word, it is not. Just as “homicide” means killing a person and “suicide” means killing yourself, “genocide” means killing a people. China’s persecution of the Uyghurs is horrific: it has locked up perhaps 1m of them in prison camps, which it naturally mislabels “vocational training centres”. It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. - Yes, Guardi…

Homicide and suicide apply to individuals. Genocide applies to a group. You don't have to kill every living member of a group to eliminate it. For example, you could just sterilize the females.

Which is why that practice (along with kidnapping/relocating children) is recognized as such.

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#26

Post by senormenor »

draklor40 wrote: post #14

By the common understanding of the word, it is not. Just as “homicide” means killing a person and “suicide” means killing yourself, “genocide” means killing a people. China’s persecution of the Uyghurs is horrific: it has locked up perhaps 1m of them in prison camps, which it naturally mislabels “vocational training centres”. It has forcibly sterilised some Uyghur women. But it is not slaughtering them. - Yes, Guardi…

The definition of "genocide" isn't really that simple. Raphael Lemkin, who invented the term "genocide" in his 1944 book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, said that genocide is " a coordinated strategy to destroy a group of people, a process that could be accomplished through total annihilation as well as strategies that eliminate key elements of the group's basic existence, including language, culture, and economic infrastructure" (my emphasis).

China might not be literally committing mass-murder but my non-expert understanding is that they're making a deliberate effort to eliminate Uighyur culture and identity which is very much within the definition of genocide.

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#27

Post by jjgreen »

Loughla wrote: post #20
jjgreen wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying that you're wrong -- would you include the US eugenics programs [1] or the Australian forced adoptions [2] in that? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Yes, obviously. But what is the point of bringing that up, honestly?

[flagged]

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#28

Post by marcinzm »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16
hd4 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you bring contemporary examples, not things that happened decades before many of the posters here were even alive?

From the wiki article itself: > The compulsory sterilization of American men and women continues to this day. In 2013, it was reported that 148 female prisoners in two California prisons were sterilized between 2006 and 2010 in a supposedly voluntary program, but it was determined that the prisoners did not give consent to the procedures. > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-stern/sterilization-calif... It was banned…

Evil as that is, it's not genocide since it's not aimed at the destruction of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. The other western examples cited were aimed at that as is what China is doing.

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#29

Post by chartpath »

__s wrote: post #7
jjgreen wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying that you're wrong -- would you include the US eugenics programs [1] or the Australian forced adoptions [2] in that? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Yes. Same for the residential schools in Canada my grandmother attended https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc...

Thank you for bringing this up. It's outrageous that it isn't more known outside of Canada (and inside). The last one only closed in 1996.

EDIT: and good on you for honouring her.

Re: “Genocide” is the wrong word for the horrors of Xinjiang

#30

Post by maxerickson »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16
hd4 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you bring contemporary examples, not things that happened decades before many of the posters here were even alive?

From the wiki article itself: > The compulsory sterilization of American men and women continues to this day. In 2013, it was reported that 148 female prisoners in two California prisons were sterilized between 2006 and 2010 in a supposedly voluntary program, but it was determined that the prisoners did not give consent to the procedures. > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alex-stern/sterilization-calif... It was banned…

Also last summer in the immigration detention center(s?).

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/9/15/21437805/w...

I guess there can be some room for discussion about whether it is genocide if there is not a clear target group/culture.

Doesn't make it less heinous, just a different sort of heinous.

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