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MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

reuters.com

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Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#691

Post by RhodoGSA »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #499
rokhayakebe wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

governments simply have to make it illegal to transact anonymously Making something illegal does not give a government control over it. Many websites/apps are illegal in many countries. Yet governments have near zero control over their citizens using those products. VPN.

VPN hides activity. Bitcoin makes it public record. Regulating Bitcoin transactions is extremely easy due to the public ledger. You simply make it illegal for exchanges to transact with coins that are known to be stolen or otherwise flagged. Then all exchanges are forced to blacklist coins on that list, as well as descendant transactions from those blacklisted coins. Now there are two classes of addresses on the bloc…

I can exchange my coins on a DEX - No third party required.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#692

Post by dman7 »

TylerE wrote: post #646
dman7 wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not actually certain whether Mastercard will include volatile cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin. Reading this article ( https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/mastercard-will-... ), their requirements suggest supporting stablecoins (i.e. USDC). These cryptocurrencies are pegged to the dollar and should be backed by a reserve. In that case, your argument about price movements doesn't apply here.

That's a rather heavy should . I'd bet dollars to pesos at least some of them are operating fractional reserve schemes, or have the reserve "invested" in crypto.

True. I'm mainly referring to the fact that some stablecoins, such as Tether, are not honest about their actual reserves: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25788409

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#693

Post by hertzrat »

systemvoltage wrote: post #84
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

These stories usually spur more enthusiasm for buying cryptocurrency, but ironically those buyers aren’t interested in spending cryptocurrency using their MasterCard. They’re hoping other people will buy cryptocurrency from these announcements, driving the price up. Or, more likely, they’re just hoping other people will buy cryptocurrency and not use it in these spending systems. Spending cryptocurrency would result…

What's the point of an unstable, volatile, frantically manipulated currency that is susceptible to social media pump and dump schemes (Elon + Doge)? Currency and its exchange rate needs to be relatively stable for the world to put trust into it. Saying that BTC is stable, but the rest of the world's fiat currency is fluctuating makes no sense. US dollar provides stability and security, I feel confident that a cappucc…

Investing in Bitcoin seems like investing in GameStop: so many people are obsessed and want in on it but almost nobody really understands what’s going on or why the value is growing. They just want the easy money. Regardless of whether Bitcoin is a good investment or not, this is not a healthy way for an investment market to work

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#694

Post by nhumrich »

soheil wrote: post #56
nhumrich wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because price is currently calculated similar to how stocks are calculated. While not entirely accurate, it essentially goes down when there are more sellers than buyers, and up when there are buyers but little sellers. What drives prices up, is more people buying than selling at market rate, which requires the market rate to go up, in order to find more sellers.

Exchanging != selling cryptocurrency If I buy a Tesla with bitcoin and Tesla keeps recirculating the same bitcoin or at least majority of it to purchase raw material without selling it why does that must drive down the price of bitcoin?

Because almost certainly, the implementation will be for the company, mastercard, tesla, etc, to immediately turn around and sell the crypto for $.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#695

Post by PragmaticPulp »

ric2b wrote: post #503
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying with Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency requires the customer to pay the transaction fees. Regardless of what you think about credit card companies, which payment method do you think the average consumer would choose? 1) Pay by credit card, get 2% cash back, reserve option to reverse charges if vendor fails to deliver, don't lose all of your money if you lose your credit card. 2) Pay by Bitcoin, pay $8 transa…

Nothing stops you from having Bitcoin credit cards. In fact they already exist. Dollar bills don't have any of the advantages you mentioned either. How fast and secure do you think mailing them to some company is? A lot of these arguments are really just cherry-picking whichever portion of the financial system best suits your argument at the time and pretending they're only possible if they're built on top of pieces…

> Dollar bills don't have any of the advantages you mentioned either. How fast and secure do you think mailing them to some company is?

No one mails paper dollar bills around.

Bitcoin always sounds fantastic when compared to these straw-man alternate universes where everyone is mailing dollar bills around, but let's stick to reality where no one does that.

> pretending they're only possible if they're built on top of pieces of paper.

USD isn't literally built on top of paper money. Cryptocurrency, however, is literally invented out of thin air by programmers. New cryptocurrencies are released every week. Even Bitcoin gets forked at times.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#696

Post by derefr »

imtringued wrote: post #637
whatshisface wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spending cryptocurrency would result in selling that cryptocurrency, which would drive the price down. That’s not what cryptocurrency investors actually want. That's a misunderstanding of how these things work. If selling drove the price down, then the price would never go up! Why? Because nobody can buy without a sale on the other side of the transaction. The common belief that selling lowers the price comes from…

There are two sides of an orderbook. There are sell orders (ask) and buy orders (bid). When your sell order is higher than the highest bid it will be put onto the order book. If your buy order is lower than the lowest ask it will be put onto the order book. You can sell or buy instantaneously by fulfilling an existing order. When you do a market order the exchange automatically presents you with the most favorable or…

But the whole point of a bank doing something like this, is that they have the reserves needed to not have to buy/sell on the open market. They can take your "sold" token and give you the observed market rate for it; then put the tokens you gave them in their own holding account, listing them on the exchange for the price they're willing to pay, and wait. They're in no hurry to liquidate.

If a buyer then comes along who's willing to pay that price—and that price is higher than the current market price for the token—then the token goes up in value.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#697

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

gbear605 wrote: post #652
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you've got two political systems each vying for legitimacy. They each have their own currency, and their own set of policy outcomes. Is it so laughable that whichever one achieves the best results for its users will be the one to establish both market and political dominance? Is letting such a competition play out via the value of their respective currencies any better than traditional means of resolving this…

A market doesn’t work in countries without a strong government, since for a market to work, there needs to be faith that the other party isn’t going to break the rules of the market. If you’re trying to sell your goods and someone comes in with a gun, then you have to hope that either you have a gun or can call police. If you have to resort to using a gun, then that leads to huge costs and lots of dead people.

I'm not gonna say that that doesn't happen, but it's surely not the only thing that happens in places without an authority. People want to exchange goods, and they're typically willing to be clever in order to make that happen.

Already cryptocurrencies are implementing webs of trust to guard against this kind of thing (CirclesUBI). There are also things like MAD escrow (particl). And there's the old fashioned way, which is to get the community together and set up your own impromptu government.

I'm not saying that markets function well without readily available trust. But to say that they cease to exist in those contexts is surely taking it too far.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#698

Post by PragmaticPulp »

nemo44x wrote: post #544
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask yourself: What drives the price increase? Are people buying because they expect to use Bitcoin? Or because they expect the price will go up? If it's the latter, it's a self-reinforcing cycle: The price goes up because people buy. People buy because the price goes up. So what happens when the popular narrative switches? What happens when the price goes down for years at a time and people watch their money dwindle?…

The price did go down for about a couple years and here we are today. I think if anything people are more likely to buy the dips and see it as a buying opportunity rather than a reason to. So what drives the increase in price? Many reasons. Because it's going up? Sure, that's accounts for some. It's a store of value against a government that printed 22% of all dollars ever created last year? Yeah. In a world that see…

> It's a store of value against a government that printed 22% of all dollars ever created last year?

What asset isn't a store of value? Inflation, by definition, is when the price of something inflates. Bitcoin's price is inflating in dollar terms. Someone invested in stocks and real estate is protected from US dollar inflation.

The idea that Bitcoin is the only way to protect against inflation, or even that it's a good way to protect against inflation, is largely a narrative pressed by people who want you to buy more Bitcoin. That is, they want you to inflate Bitcoin via demand-pull inflation. Ironic, isn't it?

> is attractive because it's a global store of value that can be tapped if you ever have to flee?

You really think all those people buying and holding Bitcoin in their Coinbase and Robinhood accounts are doing so because they might flee the country?

Again, the narrative that Bitcoin is a mechanism for fleeing oppressive governments is largely a myth. If someone wanted to get their money out of a country, they don't need to invest in Bitcoin long-term. They just need to transfer in, cross the border, and transfer out.

Let's be honest: Most people are speculating.

> It's quite scarce

It was literally invented out of thin air by programming. The maximum number is finite, but it's ironic to declare a resource scarce when there are thousands of altcoins online, and even multiple forks of Bitcoin.

> I think in the long run it's just a thing that makes a lot of sense to more and more people as part of a well diversified portfolio.

Price goes up because other people buy it because price goes up...

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#699

Post by PragmaticPulp »

nexthash wrote: post #591
tboyd47 wrote: post #547

It's important for people to read the actual press release: https://mstr.cd/3tLaPZM There's good info here which will be new info to many. Why did they do this? It turns out that about a third of Nigerians report using or holding cryptocurrency (!). https://www.statista.com/chart/18345/crypto-currency-adoptio... Second place are Vietnam and the Phillipines. For all, the #1 reason was for remittances. Haven't we all h…

Set this chart to "all" and tell me that this price movement is not a bubble. There is no earthly reason for why a "BitCoin" is worth $47,459.66 as of this post. https://www.coindesk.com/price/bitcoin Cryptocurrency adoption in 3rd world countries like Nigeria, Vietnam, and the Philippines is not a good thing. It's actually really sad, because it means they cannot rely on or trust their country's currency. Therefore,…

> Therefore, they are forced to place bets in a volatile and dangerous game to keep their life savings

Is there any evidence that people in these countries are rushing to transfer their cash into Bitcoin? Not just a couple people that some news reporter found, but actual statistics?

Realistically, if these people have access to out-of-country transfers they're going to switch to USD, not transfer to a Bitcoin exchange and switch to digital money that they can't actually use for any transactions.

On the other hand, Bitcoin would be a very attractive vehicle for oppressive governments to embezzle funds out of their country at scale, as they control the strings to the banks and the regulations. Their only concern is not getting caught or seeing their money confiscated.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#700

Post by PragmaticPulp »

xur17 wrote: post #525
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "my credit card pays me 2% to use it", no, your credit card charges the merchant 2.3%+ to use it, Consumers do not care about anything other than the net price they pay. Stores that take Bitcoin payments flip this around, passing the transaction cost to consumers. If I'm ordering a $50 thing online and the store takes Bitcoin, I have two options: 1) Pay with my credit card, for a net cost of $49 to me and a guarant…

Some merchants do pass the savings on to the user for using Bitcoin vs credit cards, and there are ways to pay with Bitcoin (lightning) that involve negligible fees.

> nd there are ways to pay with Bitcoin (lightning) that involve negligible fees.

Cool, where can I use this Lightning network?

It exists and works, right?

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