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MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

reuters.com

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Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#361

Post by whitepaint »

seibelj wrote: post #330
Sargos wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker News is still trying to grasp Bitcoin so I feel like Ethereum is going to take another few years to even begin productive discussions.

HN should have been on the cutting edge of crypto, given its “hacker” supposed ethos, but a large group of no-coiners couldn’t understand it and have posted the same tired arguments ad nauseum for years. There are a lot of people on HN who love and support crypto but the arguments are exhausting and you get nothing but downvotes. All of my friends and family I convinced to buy and hold have been texting me how I chan…

I've read many good arguments against cryptos here. If 80% drop happens within the next month, nobody really would be surprised. Cryptos can still easily fail. I hold Ether (just it) because what they are doing is really extraordinary but gazillion things might go wrong with it, Bitcoin, and others.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#362

Post by dalbasal »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

These stories usually spur more enthusiasm for buying cryptocurrency, but ironically those buyers aren’t interested in spending cryptocurrency using their MasterCard. They’re hoping other people will buy cryptocurrency from these announcements, driving the price up. Or, more likely, they’re just hoping other people will buy cryptocurrency and not use it in these spending systems. Spending cryptocurrency would result…

Well...

Cryptocurrency people are hoping for all sort of things... that's part of why enthusiasm can be currently quantified at a $1trn.

While I'm sure you're right for most of the current bets (bitcoin owners are long, after all), there's something to be said for blind, dumb momentum. Connecting more people & financial nodes to the network, however disintermediated, for whatever reason.

Maybe the "mastercard model" of denominating in bitcoin and clearing yourself in dollars is an early version of how bitcoin transaction costs actually get to normal. That's not unlike how stocks, bonds, forex & such are exchanged.

I know. I know. Irony. Inevitable though, I think. Pretty much all currency & currency-like stuff gets moved around through clearing houses. Direct blockchain transactions are the theoretically ultimate transaction in the same way that NYSE transactions are theoretically ultimate. Actual stock transactions generally happen within a broker, the broker's broker or whoever else is between them and the actual stock market. The logic is similar.

TLDR... People are giddy or hypocritical because they're long (or short) on bitcoin. That doesn't mean that momentum isn't momentum.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#363

Post by red_trumpet »

whatshisface wrote: post #312
u678u wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No if you have millions or billions basic wire transfers are instant and cheap. It is more interesting for if you have a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, where a $10-$50 fee is significant. Or you want to bypass regulations or bureaucracy eg send money to a friend in Argentina or Lebanon which have currency controls.

Bitcoin's use as a way of bypassing currency controls is one of the best arguments against it, because governments, already prone to suspicion towards anything that might upset their monetary policy, will have no quarter towards anything that upsets their laws.

That's just not true. Every Bitcoin transaction is conserved in the blockchain, so a government can easily reconstruct the money flow.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#364

Post by xirbeosbwo1234 »

LegitShady wrote: post #78
ArtTimeInvestor wrote: post #4

The game Paypal currently plays with Crypto is the closest thing to printing money I have ever seen: Their users can "buy and sell Bitcoin" and pay "no fees". How does Paypal make money? "From the spread". The difference between bid and ask. And who sets the spread? Drumroll ... Paypal! Since you cannot transfer your bitcoins out, when you sell your bitcoins, Paypal pays you whatever they like. So far, Paypal only of…

crypto you can't move out of a particular broker is just company scrip

crypto is just company scrip

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#365

Post by dash2 »

halukakin wrote: post #348
vbezhenar wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your view must be skewed by privilege of having stable currency. Currency of my country lost 250% of its value over last 7 years. It's not bitcoin-level volatile, but close to it. Thankfully I have an option to use USD to hoard money, but that option is not something that's given, in many countries you just can't exchange for fair price. I agree that for someone living in US or EU there's no much point using BTC.

Even if BTC were available to all countries, it wouldn't have stopped local currency value losses. And ironically hoarding stronger currencies makes local currencies lose value even faster.

Sure, but it protects the individual saver, and governments are capable of debauching their currency with or without the existence of BTC.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#366

Post by ur-whale »

u678u wrote: post #205
krisdol wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I own about $11 worth of bitcoin if I round up a bit, so this might be biased. The most convincing "point" of bitcoin I've heard is to accomodate transfer of large sums of money across borders, quickly, with minimal transaction costs and oversight. Everyone here can afford the fee to transact 8 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes. That's appealing t…

No if you have millions or billions basic wire transfers are instant and cheap. It is more interesting for if you have a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, where a $10-$50 fee is significant. Or you want to bypass regulations or bureaucracy eg send money to a friend in Argentina or Lebanon which have currency controls.

> basic wire transfers are instant and cheap

This is woefully incorrect. Wire transfers are neither instant nor cheap, depending on the source and destination country.

If you wire from US to US, or EU to EU, they yeah, maybe.

The moment you move large sums across borders, especially to /from countries that aren't in the US's "good guys" list (as dumb and childish as that sounds, this is typical language in USistan for politicians and media), things gets very tricky.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#367

Post by stale2002 »

the_local_host wrote: post #133
PretzelPirate wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original idea of Bitcoin was to have a currency that wasn’t in government control - not to keep the government and big banks away from it. The current world of cryptocurrency gives you a choice of trusting big banks or not, and having the same economic opportunities regardless of the level of trust you are comfortable with.

> The original idea of Bitcoin was to have a currency that wasn’t in government control I've never understood this. With an immutable ledger of all transactions, governments simply have to make it illegal to transact anonymously (or pseudonymously), watch the blockchain, and investigate any un-attributed transactions. It would actually enhance governments' surveillance capabilities against anyone not willing to run t…

> governments simply have to make it illegal to transact anonymously

How? Are you suggesting that every single government in the world would collude together to ban crypto?

What if, at least one of those probably western, countries chooses to make the simple decision of not being a parody of a distopian government?

Then other governments who have chosen to be a storybook parody of distopian would be unable to tell the different between these legally anonymous transactions that are in the normal country that is allowing these transaction, and between illegal transactions that are not in that country.

They couldn't simply watch the blockchain, as 1 country is defecting by not acting like an absurd example of a totalitarian government that is in no way similar to how modern day western countries act.

> You don't need to control a currency if you can control anyone who holds it.

But multiple absurd totalitarian governments that pop up overnight wouldn't be able to control everyone who owns crypto, as there would certain be countries that decide to make the simple decision of not acting like a story book parody of an evil government.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#368

Post by kelnos »

krisdol wrote: post #175
systemvoltage wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of an unstable, volatile, frantically manipulated currency that is susceptible to social media pump and dump schemes (Elon + Doge)? Currency and its exchange rate needs to be relatively stable for the world to put trust into it. Saying that BTC is stable, but the rest of the world's fiat currency is fluctuating makes no sense. US dollar provides stability and security, I feel confident that a cappucc…

Full disclosure: I own about $11 worth of bitcoin if I round up a bit, so this might be biased. The most convincing "point" of bitcoin I've heard is to accomodate transfer of large sums of money across borders, quickly, with minimal transaction costs and oversight. Everyone here can afford the fee to transact 8 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes. That's appealing t…

People who want to move millions or billions of dollars around don't care about a $30 wire fee. What they do care about is recourse in the case of fraud or mistakes, which Bitcoin by design does not give you.

Moving large amount of money without government interference, however, is certainly a feature of Bitcoin that fiat currency usually doesn't have. And there are some (though perhaps not many?) non-shady reasons why someone might want this.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#369

Post by mancerayder »

krisdol wrote: post #175
systemvoltage wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of an unstable, volatile, frantically manipulated currency that is susceptible to social media pump and dump schemes (Elon + Doge)? Currency and its exchange rate needs to be relatively stable for the world to put trust into it. Saying that BTC is stable, but the rest of the world's fiat currency is fluctuating makes no sense. US dollar provides stability and security, I feel confident that a cappucc…

Full disclosure: I own about $11 worth of bitcoin if I round up a bit, so this might be biased. The most convincing "point" of bitcoin I've heard is to accomodate transfer of large sums of money across borders, quickly, with minimal transaction costs and oversight. Everyone here can afford the fee to transact 8 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes. That's appealing t…

Forget million and billions. Hasn't anyone on this thread lived and worked abroad? Transferring 10s of thousands from the US to the EU or vice versa costs a ton in the banks skimming off the back of exchange rates that they choose and fees. There are ways to do it via trading accounts but it's a pain.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#370

Post by arcticbull »

anm89 wrote: post #339
arcticbull wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there are, thanks to positive control from central banks. That's the point of central banks. Provide and maintain stability through the active expansion and contraction of supply against an index.

Show me a currency that has the exact same inflation figures every month for a single year and I'll send you a bitcoin. Or alternately, just view a currency index like the DXY to see very closely that nothing comes close to this. Here is what some real inflation data looks like (as viewedin terms of CPI). It can't even decide if it wants to stay positive or negative on a monthly basis. https://tradingeconomics.com/eu…

> Show me a currency that has the exact same inflation figures every month for a single year and I'll send you a bitcoin.

That's strictly not a goal. The goal is a long-to-medium term target average.

> Or alternately, just view a currency index like the DXY to see very closely that nothing comes close to this.

DXY has little to do with domestic spending power, only the relative strength of one currency compared to a basket of other foreign currencies when spending abroad.

High vs low DXY measures the relative pricing of imports vs exports. Strong dollar means cheaper imports. Weak dollar means more competitive exports. This isn't really inflation related, it's a separate target. After all, I believe every central bank in the DXY basket has the same inflation targets to within a reasonable band. [1]

People overwhelmingly spend within the country not abroad.

> It can't even decide if it wants to stay positive or negative on a monthly basis.

That monetary policy takes time to be reflected in measurements in a multi-trillion dollar system isn't a bug.

The data you show me looks pretty. darn. good.

> ... and I'll send you a bitcoin.

Please don't. I care about the earth too much to have you blow 22 days (650kWh) of electricity and 100g of e-waste on you sending me one. If I wanted a Bitcoin I'd have plenty. You're welcome to sell it at an exchange, and donate the proceeds to an environmental organization like Ducks Unlimited [2].

That of course has the double effect of reducing the price, which reduces the quantity of electricity wasted on its production and security, which reduces CO2 emissions -- while also saving the wetlands.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/usdx.asp#:~:text=The%20....

[2] https://www.ducks.org/support/donateOnlineSecureN2-HCT.aspx?...

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