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The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

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Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#231

Post by floatingatoll »

BowBun wrote: post #203
ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I'm generally for social welfare programs, however the idea of "welfare queens (and kings)" is NOT fiction. I come from Belgium which has this problem quite notoriously. It is quite common for people to be abusing the social programs to stay unemployed and make more income than blue-collar workers. Like you allude to, I think we need to look more deeply to address this issue - why are people satisfied doing nothing a…

I would think that given what we’ve done here in the US to the past forty years of workers, they’ve earned a decade off to live on UBI and heal from burnout and develop interests of any sort in anything at all again, before we could even begin to productively analyze their reactions to UBI. They’ve been traumatized and it will take time to heal and I certainly hope that we implement UBI and let them do so. We can afford it as a country and god knows they’ve done enough for us to have earned a break from work if they need time to heal.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#232

Post by fitzie »

ascagnel_ wrote: post #92
colechristensen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was once involved with a young woman in a homeless program which was entirely defeated by this exact "wrong person" attitude. Get a homeless person an apartment? Great. But it didn't end there, there was a constant stream of documentation requirements, your employer had to, monthly, sign paperwork about how much you earned (advertise to employers that you are/were homeless). The program punished you for making mone…

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

Our welfare system is entirely rife with abuse. the tricks to avoid healthcare costs are exploited by foreigners and Americans alike, people who shift assets to enroll in medicaid or come here to retire with free health care are entirely abusing the system.

prioritization in vaccination at the cost of incredible inneficiency is celebrated by the media and our political class. I'm not so upset about the cost as much as the delays it causes to herd immunity. which is presumably what this vaccination program is all about.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#233

Post by topspin »

wycy wrote: post #124

It would be so simple to have a system where everyone can sign up with the local health department to receive extra doses at the end of the day. If there are extra doses, you receive a text message and have 10 minutes to confirm that you'll be there within the hour, otherwise it moves on to the next person. There should be no reason a single dose of this stuff should ever go to waste.

"It would be so simple"

It may seem simple but your scheme a fraught with equity issues. The ability to respond in a timely manner or arrive within a limited timeframe such as you propose is likely to reflect the luxury of privilege. And yes, equity concerns are more important than concerns over whatever minimal delays or waste they create.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#234

Post by treis »

ceejayoz wrote: post #37
treis wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. There's a whole swath of acceptable and achievable options. Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the rig…

> Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. With a six hour window, it's unlikely he's gonna be able to invent a fair queuing system on his own, and get applicants to it. The article indicates he tried first with EMS, police, etc. at the vaccination location. There should be state-wide efforts at this; a "we might call you at 2am to ask you if you can be to the hospital by…

I've said this in other responses but it's worth repeating. He was the medical director of the Covid vaccination program for the county. If there was no plan for left over vaccines that's his fault.

Nobody expects him to come up with a perfectly fair queueing system on the spot. He should have done that sometime in the 6 months he had to prepare for the rollout. Even if we overlook that, using your position of public trust for personal benefit or for the benefit of your friends is a bright line you are not supposed to cross. And it is a bright line that is there for good reason and should be enforced.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#235

Post by adolph »

mchusma wrote: post #79
nathancahill wrote: post #3

Spent a long time reading about how vast bureaucratic inefficiencies are created by people worrying that "the wrong person" will benefit from government programs or that someone "undeserving" might get theirs before I do. This falls squarely in that bucket. Tragic.

This is why I generally support universal basic income if it could replace the US safety net. Currently we spend more than it would take to eliminate poverty if we just gave it away. But the beauracratic machine just destroys so much wealth.

the beauracratic machine just destroys so much wealth

In theory I sympathize with the sentiment, but 1) the dole is not wealth 2) the administration costs of the dole don't make money disappear, its just routed into income for the admin workers, 3) the administration costs of the dole do not necessarily decrease with UBI and might increase given a larger population to administer.

I generally do not support UBI since the key problem isn't cash in people's pockets, it is lack of engagement with society in ways that add value. UBI papers over the core problem.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#236

Post by AbrahamParangi »

JoshTko wrote: post #65

This is a complex issue. Ideally we would have a much better organized rollout avoiding these scenarios. I don't think we ever want individual physicians using their own contacts list to find candidates regardless of good intention, it just opens the door up too much abuse. I don't think the penalty matches the crime, certainly not a criminal prosecution.

It would be better for 100 people to get the vaccine out of order than for 1 dose to be wasted. The leverage from removing people from the pool of potential spreaders is MASSIVE.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#237

Post by lostcolony »

spion wrote: post #220
BowBun wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally for social welfare programs, however the idea of "welfare queens (and kings)" is NOT fiction. I come from Belgium which has this problem quite notoriously. It is quite common for people to be abusing the social programs to stay unemployed and make more income than blue-collar workers. Like you allude to, I think we need to look more deeply to address this issue - why are people satisfied doing nothing a…

UBI or progressive negative tax should solve this problem, no? (The idea is that a job always gets you more money than the base)

Yeah. It's super easy to fix, if people wanted to fix it. Even with welfare, you just make it so every after tax dollar earned reduces the welfare check by 50 cents. Tada, incentive to work, and only when you're making double what welfare pays out do you stop receiving assistance.

People may still 'take advantage' of it, by choosing not to work (if we got rid of all the systems requiring proof they're trying to find a job and etc), but honestly if the promise of making more no matter what they do, or how few hours they work, doesn't motivate them, I'm really not concerned about that loss of labor in the labor pool.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#238

Post by sudosysgen »

kryogen1c wrote: post #134
nathancahill wrote: post #3

Spent a long time reading about how vast bureaucratic inefficiencies are created by people worrying that "the wrong person" will benefit from government programs or that someone "undeserving" might get theirs before I do. This falls squarely in that bucket. Tragic.

the real problem is that two core issues exist in opposition: 1) what is the most cost efficient way to solve the problem 2) how people feel about the chosen solution solving 1 does not automatically solve 2. the slider between anarchocapitalism and state-owned and -operated socialism belongs somewhere in the middle and everyone wants to tug it into a different spot. if theres anything the internet + social media is…

There is no slider between state socialism and anarchocapitalism. Economically, there are quite a few more axes. It's possible to have full socialism without anymore state ownership than today, and it's possible to have capitalism with a lot of state ownership, and it's also possible to have cybernetics-market chimera to organize the economy.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#239

Post by wycy »

topspin wrote: post #233
wycy wrote: post #124

It would be so simple to have a system where everyone can sign up with the local health department to receive extra doses at the end of the day. If there are extra doses, you receive a text message and have 10 minutes to confirm that you'll be there within the hour, otherwise it moves on to the next person. There should be no reason a single dose of this stuff should ever go to waste.

"It would be so simple" It may seem simple but your scheme a fraught with equity issues. The ability to respond in a timely manner or arrive within a limited timeframe such as you propose is likely to reflect the luxury of privilege. And yes, equity concerns are more important than concerns over whatever minimal delays or waste they create.

I guess this is just a point upon which we disagree. I'd rather any given dose make it into the arm of a some rich asshat than go down the drain.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#240

Post by lostcolony »

colechristensen wrote: post #120
ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I likewise know someone who intentionally makes as little money as possible in order to take advantage of state support program. Or to be more accurate, makes as much money as possible under the various limits for benefits while living in a comfortable (essentially inherited) situation. This is a person with high education, without any major disability or impediment to working, they just choose not to work because th…

So remove the 'limit', and instead make state support programs reduce by a fraction of the earned amount. I.e. (as I mentioned elsewhere), if every after tax dollar earned equaled 50 cents loss in state support...there is no ceiling any longer where it doesn't make sense to earn more, while at the same time cutting state support off entirely at 2x what it pays if you don't do anything.
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